Ugly Americans

[Andrew Shafer]

So now we have Americans attacking other Americans, and not just Muslims or Arabs. A turban wearing Sikh was shot and killed in a convenience store. A caucasian Australian man was stabbed nearly to death for attempting to thwart an assault on his Indian friend. These are stories that are making the national news so I'm sure the minor violences and slights are wide spead and pervasive.
These attacks are unjustified, unpatriotic and only prove one thing. . . there are some ig'nernt mutha ph#quers out there.
To all those who may have been born light brown and speak with an accent, watch out for America's finest.

[Randall Twede]

get off it! one incident if its even true. sounds like tabloid crap to me. only skinheads and clansmen go around acting that way here. and there arent very many of them.

[Angela Poynton]

On TV here last night they showed a Muslim Guy playing the hate messages from the answerphone at his Mosque. Many of them were from women, and deeply shocked me.
Don't be naive, ignorence does not belong to a particular group / class of people. I'm glad that the Director of the FBI came out and reminded the nation that such crimes are against Federal Law and will be dealt with accordingly.
Last night I heard over 40 attacks had been reported, I don't eve want to think about how many weren't.

[Christophe Lee]

Randal,
These events ARE true. The Sikh that was killed live in Phoenix, Arizona. I am also in Arizona and the news has been broadcast nonstop.
I am a student in college right now and there are verbal attacks on the memorial boards against the Muslim Student Association. The memorial boards were put up so students may write words of encouragement and hope. Instead, it has become a board of slander.
Indeed, I would have to say that most of these insults have come from educated and disciplined ROTC guys (and other college students) - NOT skinheads or clansmen.
I originally thought this tragedy would help unite us against our enemy. But I was wrong, it is tearing us apart and it is evident in the forums here at Javaranch as well as on the memorial boards on campus as well as events throughout the nation.
These events are real and the only way to stop them is to first acknowledge them.
[This message has been edited by Christophe Lee (edited September 19, 2001).]

[Dave Vick]

Randal
Sorry to say it but I have no doubt that these are true and that there are probably quite a few others that go unreported. Here in Cleveland some idiot drove his car into a Mosque (at about 80 miles an hour).
I hate to say it but people that engage in that type of behavior are not much better than the people who started this whole mess. No, they aren't on the same scale but they are attacking and taking out their hatred/frustration on innocent people who most likely had nothing to do with the attacks.
Dave

[Ling Wu]

This is from New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/national/19HATE.html

[Thomas Paul]

There is a Sikh temple in my town. They have always been great neighbors. Today there are about 2 dozen American flags flying in front of the temple.

[Andy Ceponis]

It is bad that such a thing is happening here. I dont condone it and i think its really wrong. But it is not a shock to me, and if it really is a shock to anyone else then they need to get out and see the world. If the tides were turned and this happened in another country, Americans would get the same treatment. And im betting it would be much worse even.
And to compare some idiots who are committing race crimes to terrorists is about the stupidest thing ive heard in a while.

[Andrew Shafer]

There are certain parallels between terrorists and those perpetrating race crimes, as well as some qualitative differences, though I didn't see anyone comparing terrorists to stupid people commiting hate crimes, at least not on this thread, and I'm not really in the mood to debate or discuss it.
The point that Americans may be treated badly in another country under similar circumstances has no bearing on this thread either.
AMERICANS ARE BEING ATTACKED IN THERE OWN COMMUNITIES!!
ATTACKED BY AMERICANS!!
Is that the freedom and liberty we are fighting to protect?
If we want to place all the blame on muslims and Arabs, why are Indians and Sikhs being attacked?
I believe it illustrates two things:
One, the social fabric of the US has some thin spots that we like to ignore. How long has it been since people were ready to race riot in Cleveland? As much as we have put aside some of our differences in the wake of this horrible tragedy, these differences have apparently been swapped with and focused on new groups.
Two, some Americans are apparently too Goddamn dumb to know the difference between Arabs and Indians or Sikhs and Muslims or too blinded with xenophobic blood lust to discriminate.
If you are a second generation American from Indian, Arabic or whatever is darker than average but lighter than African heritage, what message are you getting?
The focus should be on creating the best possible world that is safe for those who respect the safety and choices of others. To accomplish that, a lot of work will need to be done around the world. Sadly, a lot of that work will also have to take place in the hearts and minds of America.

[Andy Ceponis]

Originally posted by Andrew Shafer:
Two, some Americans are apparently too Goddamn dumb to know the difference between Arabs and Indians or Sikhs and Muslims or too blinded with xenophobic blood lust to discriminate.

And just how is anyone supposed to know the difference between an arab, a muslim and a sikh? I can almost guarantee you that even you dont. I know i dont. And i can also guarantee that 99.99% of other Americans cant either. Thats like saying can you tell the difference between a baptist and a member of the kkk.
Arent some arabs muslims? and arent some muslims sikhs? and arent some muslims arbas? get the picture?

[Anonymous]

Andy...

arent some muslims sikhs?

This is like asking...Aren't some christians muslims?...Islam and Sikhism are two VERY different faiths...Get your religions right...buddy!
Shyam
[This message has been edited by Shyamsundar Gururaj (edited September 19, 2001).]

[Jim Yingst]

Plus, Sikhs make it incredibly easy to identify their religion just by looking at them (at least the men). Very distinctive headgear.
Still, the fact that many Americans don't know the difference between Sikhs and Muslims is relatively unimportant next to the appalling evil and stupidity of a few Americans who actually think it's "patriotic" to attack and even kill others based on their race or religion. This is not a new thing in the world, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the problem or sweep it under the rug.

[Shama Khan]

- Attacks are and were conducted because of Hatred.
- Hatred comes from Fear
- Fear comes from the Unknown (not knowing about ...)
- Not Knowing comes from Not Learning.
- We have to get out there and learn about each other so we
can see how alike we are and how little our differences are.
I kept telling this to myself the whole week I didn't go to work after the World Trade Center Tragedy. And this mantra finally allowed me to report to work on monday.
It has been 3 days since I've been going to work (taking public transportation) with my headscarf ON. I am wearing black rather than my regular white so I would draw less attention.
In addition to constant praying while traveling, I keep the faith in my fellow Americans. However, I did get very scared yesterday at work when I read in the Guardian from UK that due to the tragedy an Afghani cab driver was beaten so badly by his passengers that he is now a paraplegic. I was frozen with fear not for myself but for my daughter who may have to grow without a mother if anything happens to me.
All this time, my mom and some concerned coworkers have asked me to ditch my scarf but I don't want to because I feel it will show a lack of faith in Allah who will protect me. It may be hard for some to understand but I am willing to die for my faith (ie. wearing scarf). That would be Jihaad - an Islamic definition of an Islamic term "Jihaad" - to struggle, to strive.

Just like my fellow Americans who are in fear of their lives due to the terrorist, I am also fearful but from fellow Americans. May my faith in the goodness of people prevail. Amen.
Also yesterday, I was going through my little calendar book (trying to keep myself busy to shield me from hateful looks from my fellow passengers in the train), I found a receipt from Sbarro in the World Trade Center Shopping Concourse. I had visited at the end of June taking a visiting relative there. We had Pizza there like I always did whenever I visited there. My daughter had asked from Biscotti later on and that was the item on the receipt, on the bottom of the receipt was the Cashier's name Khadijah (obviously Muslim name). The place had been crowded (lunch time) when we had gotten there. I remember a middle eastern worker (table clearer) had gotten excited upon seeing us as my relative was wearing a long muslim dress (abaya), he had cleared a table quickly and waved us over to sit there.
More recently, I had gone over to the trade center area to meet a fellow alumni of my graduate school to be interviewed by him for possible voluntary mentoring. He seemed so excited about the mentoring project at school. He was working at some Asian bank (in one of the towers) and told me he was thinking of getting into the computing field. I can't even remember his name!
I keep thinking about all the people I had met there, all the people I had seen at the outdoor concerts sitting there and eating lunch, the security guards who used to help me get up to my sister's floor after checking my id, and I keep trying to remember all the faces thinking that if I can keep the faces in my memory then they will somehow have survived.
I wish all would realize that muslims also died in the tragedy, I heard from a fellow muslim that there was even a mosque on the 18th floor of one of the towers. Also some of the heroic workers in the recovery effort are muslim. Muslims are a part of New York. If New York City suffers so do the Muslims in it just like any other group.
People of different beliefs went to their churches and temples in droves to seek spiritual guidance in their time of need but in my time of need my mosque was deserted due to threats. My daughter could not understand why the mosque was empty and I could not explain why any mosque, any place of worship, would have to be abandoned.
My heart bleeds for the innocent thousands who died but attacking innocent people to take revenge for that somehow seems disrespectful to the memory of the dead.
[This message has been edited by Shama Khan (edited September 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Shama Khan (edited September 21, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

I think most of us realize that people from all different races, religions, and nationalities were victims of the recent atrocities. But to maybe give you some more faith in mankind, while there have been incidences of hate crimes, there have been incidences of other Americans coming to the aid of those being senselessly attacked.
It is pointless to try to think of the victims in terms of anything other than that they were unfortunate victims. Not that they wree Christian or Muslim, but that maybe they were some child's parent who won't be coming home from work. Living within commuting distance of the Pentagon, one of the stories I have heard that bothers me most is of the rescuers finding many of the charred corpses in the Pentagon still sitting at their desks where they were doing their work. I mean there you are, kissed the family goodbye, go off to work, are sitting there doing your job, and then your existence is ended.

[Ling Wu]

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
And just how is anyone supposed to know the difference between an arab, a muslim and a sikh? I can almost guarantee you that even you dont. I know i dont. And i can also guarantee that 99.99% of other Americans cant either. Thats like saying can you tell the difference between a baptist and a member of the kkk.
Arent some arabs muslims? and arent some muslims sikhs? and arent some muslims arbas? get the picture?

That is part of the problem. Although many hate crimes have been committed by those who are simply evil, there are also many committed by people who fail or refuse to learn and understand cultures, religions and customs that are different from theirs. Many of us in this country have not bothered to get to know one another enough on a personal basis, even though we may be neighbors. I used to live in a big house with Americans and students from other coutries. I had a Sikh housemate from whom I learned much about his culture, religion, customs, etc. Over the years while in school, I have also got to know many other people from different parts of the world and believe in different religions. Such experiences have prevented me from jumping into hasty conclusions from time to time. If I hadn't had such chances, I might have made incorrect assumptioins as many others do right this moment.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:
and arent some muslims sikhs?

NO!!! These are two completely different religions. They aren't even remotely related. Sikhs are closer to the Hindu faith although Sikhs are monotheistic.

[Prasad Charasala]

Originally posted by Andy Ceponis:

Arent some arabs muslims? and arent some muslims sikhs? and arent some muslims arbas? get the picture?

Andy,
You will be surprised why the Sikhs grow beard and they never cut their hair. Sikhism is borned out of Hinduism and founder is Guru Nanak. Aurangajeb, a muslim ruler of India was forcibly converting people of other faiths to Islam. In the same way he asked the Guru of Sikhs to take Islam as his faith. But Guru of Sikhism rejected that. Then ruler Aurangajeb killed him.
Then Sikhs pledged against the muslims " We will not remove our beard or hair until we sweep them out of India."
They started having a big sword always with them to protect themselves against muslim rulers. Even now some Sikhs in India still carry that sword with them.
I don't remember where I have read this.

[Prasad Charasala]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
NO!!! These are two completely different religions. They aren't even remotely related. Sikhs are closer to the Hindu faith although Sikhs are monotheistic.
[/B]

Thomas, I am surprised about your knowledge about many things. I am always reading your postings in this forum.

Hindu faith mainly believs in one God only. Many people think that Hindu believes in many Gods. That is wrong. Hinduism believs in one God. You may ask then why the people are so many idols and Gods?
Just think about Bin Laden. We think about him as demon at the same time many muslims think him as their protector and hero. So though the person is the same people see him differently. In Hinduism same thing is happening. Everyone believs God is one, but it allows you to see God in Krishna, Rama, Vishnu, Bramha, Shiva, Budda, Alla, Jesus.
That is the reason Hindus give respect to other religions. Hindus believe all religions are differents paths to reach the only one God.

[Anonymous]

EVERYONE! what Mr. Charsasala has written about Sikhism is an ABSOLUTE LIE!! Please go to www.sikh.org to learn about Sikhism. As far as hair is concerned following is the reason for us not cutting our hair!!!
"Hair(kesh) was regarded as a symbol of saintliness and Dharma in ancient times. The Biblical story of Samson Agonistes shows that hair was his source of strength and vitality. Guru Nanak started the practice of keeping unshorn hair. His son Sri Chand, the founder of the Udasi sect, also ordered his followers to maintain long hair. The keeping of hair is regarded as an indication of living in harmony with the Will of God. The shaving of hair may be construed as interference in nature's way and considering oneself wiser than God. keeping hair is the most important symbol. A Khalsa become apostate (Patit) if he shaves or trims his hair. "

[Marcus Green]

A while ago in the UK a doctor was attacked by people unable to distinguish between the word paedeatrician and a paedophile. What's the chance of people working out someones religion, even if it is irrelevent and they wear very distinctive headgear?
There are people in the world who want to hate, hating is what they do best and who they hate is not particularly important. Recent events just give some people a renewed opportunity to focus hate. If they were born in a different time and place they would find other people to hate.
I remember as a child hearing that people didn't like Chinese people and I thought "Why would you want to dislike Chinese people, they seem to be fine enough people, run some great restaurants etc etc". (We were a bit provincial y'know). Only later in life did I realise that at the time I was living in an atmosphere where it seemed reasonable (if objectionable) to hate other groups such as black people.
The only infinite things in the universe are human stupidity and imagination and I'm not so sure about imagination.
Marcus

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Marcus Green:
The only infinite things in the universe are human stupidity and imagination and I'm not so sure about imagination.
Marcus

So sad. So True.

[Anonymous]

From the Washington Times:
"These are difficult days for members of the anti-American Left. At a time of flag-waving patriotism, they're trying to channel their anti-Americanism in ways that don't seem disrespectful of the 5,000 souls who lost their lives to anti-American terrorism on September 11," John J. Miller and Ramesh Ponnuru write at National Review's Web site (www.nationalreview.com).
"To be sure, they often fail at this project. Witness Susan Sontag, writing in the current issue of The New Yorker: 'The voices licensed to follow the event seem to have joined together in a campaign to infantilize the public. Where is the acknowledgment that this was not a 'cowardly' attack on 'civilization' or 'liberty' or 'humanity' or 'the free world' but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions?'
"Someday, she may regret that quote. At least she should," the writers said.
"Yet there is one way the anti-American Left can express itself in ways that don't seem harmful to the national interest: It will suggest that hateful Americans are now engaged in a fit of anti-Muslim violence that is only one step removed from certified ethnic cleansing. What's remarkable about the days following Sept. 11 is how little of this there has been. One hears of broken store windows and even a few more serious crimes � but these are the exceptions that prove the rule. Americans are a warm and generous people, and they have not embarked on an anti-Muslim hate crusade. In how many other countries would this be true, after Sept. 11? To take a few isolated incidents and suggest we're in the midst of an epidemic is just as bad as stereotyping every Arab American as a terrorist."

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Prasad Charasala:
Hindu faith mainly believs in one God only. Many people think that Hindu believes in many Gods. That is wrong. Hinduism believs in one God.

You are absolutely correct! I checked with a very nice web site http://www.hindu.org and they restated exactly what you said. To a Christian this would make perfect sense since Christians also have one God but in three representations (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by ABC ABC:
From the Washington Times:
To take a few isolated incidents and suggest we're in the midst of an epidemic is just as bad as stereotyping every Arab American as a terrorist."

I think it is important to note this. The vast majority of Americans are not assaulting Moslems in any way. In a nation of 300,000,000 people you are going to find a few jerks. President Bush has been great in this area. He visited a mosque and stated in his speech last night that Islam was one of the world's great religions.

[Cindy Glass]

Sort of seems to me like those folks in the US that are aiming randomly at Muslims or Middle Eastern folks are participating in a little terrorism of there own, right here at home.
I think that THEY should be treated like terrorists themselves. And that would NOT be with kid gloves.

[Jane Griscti]

Bush named the "Taliban" last night. Hopefully that will help to defuse the situation; especially if the media begin referring to the "Taliban" instead of "Arabs" or "Muslims".

[Cindy Glass]

Bush has been carefull since the beginning to say terrorists. That has not stopped the red neck portion of the population from extrapolating to anyone they felt that definition included.
It is amazing that humans have achieved any level of civilization.

[Julie McCarthy]

Originally posted by Shama Khan:
- Attacks are and were conducted because of Hatred.
- Hatred comes from Fear
- Fear comes from the Unknown (not knowing about ...)
- Not Knowing comes from Not Learning.
- We have to get out there and learn about each other so we
can see how alike we are and how little our differences are.

I've heard this argument many times, and I've finally decided - I ain't buying it.
I've done a bit of traveling in my time, and have been in some places where I look quite a bit different from the locals. Said locals weren't particularly well-educated, or knowledgeable about me - but that didn't translate into hate, only curiosity and hospitality.
Hate crimes seem to proliferate in areas where people are supposedly "civilizied" and "well-educated". I believe this type of hate isn't rooted in ignorance; rather from a deliberate choice. And people percieved as Muslim are the latest excuse for haters to tap into their reserves.
All of which, I suppose, is a case of semantics - a moot point when people are justifiably scared and in peril. But I wanted to express a different point of view about the cause.

[Kripal Singh]

Originally posted by Prasad Charasala:
Andy,
Then Sikhs pledged against the muslims " We will not remove our beard or hair until we sweep them out of India."
They started having a big sword always with them to protect themselves against muslim rulers. Even now some Sikhs in India still carry that sword with them.
I don't remember where I have read this.

I think the above explanation are not correct . Please provide the source of this .

[Guennadiy VANIN]

Shama Khan,
so if you see that the differencies are big?
It is extremely wrong starting point or presupposition...
Differencies are not the problem or reason
[This message has been edited by G Vanin (edited November 20, 2001).]

[Paul Stevens]

What was the point on posting a question on a thread that has been dead for 2 months? In another thread you talk of saving time by moving this forum to the top. Yet you have time to dredge up old threads and hijack others?

[Guennadiy VANIN]

Paul,
what is the point of being "meaningless"?
How could I participate 2 month ago if I started posting a month ago? I just found that this forum was more vivid 1-2 month ago and lost its attraction since then. I am posting in what is interesting to me. Since I could not find anything interesting in recent posts, I replied to old one, but interesting
What is the point of being rude hijacking dead threads?
"Saving" time was a joke.
Interesting, so people here are for saving time, after all?
I was very curious how many people is just checking everything around even if it is meaningless
Interesting, we have very distinct notions about rudeness. For ex., for me rudenes is, first of all, to attack without any visible reason or logic.
Cheers
[This message has been edited by G Vanin (edited November 20, 2001).]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by G Vanin:
what is the point of being "meaningless"

Judging by your posts, I'm sure this question has plagued you for some time.

[Paul Stevens]

First of all you were not attacked. Second the thread was about the beauty of Norway and you started commenting about bombing. I kindly pointed out to you not to do so. Note that the word PLEASE was at the end. Also note that I am not continuing this discussion in that thread. I really was curious why you responded to a thread that had been dead for 2 months. I wanted to know whether it was idle curiosity or you were just a troll trying to stir up trouble.

[Guennadiy VANIN]

This thread is "Ugly americans" and I did not start it
[This message has been edited by G Vanin (edited November 22, 2001).]

[Thomas Paul]

There are no "ugly Americans"... only envious foreigners.