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Volunteers versus professionals

 
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Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Liutauras Vilda wrote:Bear in mind that everyone who is contributing to this community in one or another way is a volunteer, it is not a standard profit organization, where you can draw the line next to the highest industry standards as you would for a commercial product.


That's true; but IMO, it's no excuse for "shoddiness".


By definition, it is an excuse. You just don't think it is a good one. I think it is an excellent one. But, it's not going to encourage others to join in.


Winston Gutkowski wrote:Some of the best code - and products (even if we take some of them for granted) - have come out of the open-source, not-for-profit, and "volunteer" communities - including Java itself. One only has to look at protocols like ssh and ftp - and of course www (or http) - to discover a whole layer of infrastructure that has been given to us by "volunteers", or non-profit organisations.


That's rather unfair. First, those volunteer project were huge. Also, they were either started or maintained, in part, by paid volunteers. I assume the saloon doesn't compare anywhere in scale, or have any paid support to speak of. Furthermore, those products have no visible UI, which is exactly what is being talked about here. Java's first graphic support wasn't exactly a mona lisa either. Even if this point has merit, let's compare apples to apples.
 
Brian Tkatch
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Winston Gutkowski wrote:I'm sticking with my cow; because this has been a good thread.


...and milking it for all it's worth. (Some jokes must be made, tit for tat.)
 
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Brian Tkatch wrote:[By definition, it is an excuse. You just don't think it is a good one. I think it is an excellent one.


Why? Are not-for-profit programmers governed by different rules to the rest of us? Or are we, as "professionals" governed by different rules when we don't get paid?

That's hokum. Software is either good or bad; and it doesn't matter a fig whether it's done by "professionals" or not - particularly as we haven't even defined the term as it applies to programming.

I've stated why I think I'm a professional. If you can come up with another definition, then we have the basis for a discussion.

Winston
 
Winston Gutkowski
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Brian Tkatch wrote:Furthermore, those products have no visible UI, which is exactly what is being talked about here.


There I will concede, but being a complete duffer when it comes to "UIs" I have little to contribute to (our) improvement, so I hope you'll understand that I tackled the other part of the criticism.

Winston
 
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Winston Gutkowski wrote:

Brian Tkatch wrote:By definition, it is an excuse. You just don't think it is a good one. I think it is an excellent one.


Why? Are not-for-profit programmers governed by different rules to the rest of us? Or are we, as "professionals" governed by different rules when we don't get paid?


I can think of 3 reasons (off-hand) why "professionals" are better, regardless of the definition (mostly) or if it is even true as applied:

  • Professionals tend to work in the field more often, hence they appreciate and have an in-depth understanding/feeling for look and feel. Simply dealing with a subject long enough causes the brain to condition itself to it, and thus, are likely to do a better job.
  • Professionals, work with others in the field, have had feedback, and have a reputation to upkeep and defend. As such, they are more likely to have a well-rounded, best-fitting solution, that has been tested and tried in the field.
  • Professionals are usually a larger group than non-professionals (for any given area), they have usually been cherry-picked from a larger group, making them the crème de la crème


  • In some cases, especially when FOSS gets large enough, the third point no longer applies. That is rare though. And, they usually have professionals helping along, as companies have interest in the results.

    This site is very small compared to SO and related sites. SO, is run by professionals, who do exactly what SO needs in other parts of their professional careers. There really is no comparison between the two. Furthermore, BMS is meant to be cozier, where the clean fresh UI does not really convey that feeling. Also, BMS has some cuteness to it, which i think the old view captures quite well.

    Winston Gutkowski wrote:Software is either good or bad;


    That's ridiculous. What, no grading? On a scale of 1 to 5, software is either 1 or 5? Perhaps you meant to say either software works, or it does not work. In which case the rest of your statement "it doesn't matter whether it's done..." applies. Because, if we only deal with the results, how we achieved those results is inconsequential. IOW, ex post facto, the erstwhile divined chances of success no longer matter. I agree with that point. But we are not talking about what works and what does not. We are talking about what is received well and what is not received well. That is not a binary choice. Indeed, aside from grades, it changes by person. And while with a result in hand it does not matter how it was achieved, the likeliness of achieving that is worthy of mention, especially when excusing the results.

     
    Brian Tkatch
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    Winston Gutkowski wrote:

    Brian Tkatch wrote:Furthermore, those products have no visible UI, which is exactly what is being talked about here.


    There I will concede, but being a complete duffer when it comes to "UIs" I have little to contribute to (our) improvement, so I hope you'll understand that I tackled the other part of the criticism.


    I hope you never suffer the UIs of my design....
     
    Winston Gutkowski
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    Brian Tkatch wrote:I can think of 3 reasons (off-hand) why "professionals" are better, regardless of the definition (mostly) or if it is even true as applied:

  • Professionals tend to work in the field more often, hence they appreciate and have an in-depth understanding/feeling for look and feel. Simply dealing with a subject long enough causes the brain to condition itself to it, and thus, are likely to do a better job.
  • Professionals, work with others in the field, have had feedback, and have a reputation to upkeep and defend. As such, they are more likely to have a well-rounded, best-fitting solution, that has been tested and tried in the field.
  • Professionals are usually a larger group than non-professionals (for any given area), they have usually been cherry-picked from a larger group, making them the crème de la crème

  • First: we haven't even defined what a "professional" is; so my presumption is that you are referring simply to people who are employed as programmers, regardless of aptitude or any idea of "conscience". And on that basis, I don't think any of your points have much merit. I've seen "experienced" guys come up with hogwash because they were told to, and I've seen students write code that made me go "bloody hell..." (in a good way).

    It seems to me that you've imbued the word "professional" with some combination of experience and insight that I haven't seen in my career very often. I've also worked for only a handful of bosses that valued it - most of them just want someone who does what they're told "according to spec".

    I have my dad's copy of the professional engineers handbook from the province of Ontario. Is there any such thing for a programmer? If not, you need to explain what you mean by "professional" - and I suspect it ain't going to be the same as my definition.

    Winston
     
    Winston Gutkowski
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    Brian Tkatch wrote:

    Winston Gutkowski wrote:Software is either good or bad...

    That's ridiculous.


    Agreed. Stupid statement. But there isn't much middle ground. Let me put it another way: software is either good enough to last or it isn't. And I've seen plenty that wasn't written by supposed "professionals".

    Winston
     
    Brian Tkatch
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    Winston Gutkowski wrote:First: we haven't even defined what a "professional" is; so my presumption is that you are referring simply to people who are employed as programmers, regardless of aptitude or any idea of "conscience".


    I was trying to avoid what brands one as a professional, and aim more toward those who consider themselves professionals, which are people in the field. There are many idiots; that's what keeps me employed. Regardless, those who hone in on one line of work (and, for arguments sake, are able to actually do the work) are generally better at it, at least just then, as their brains have configured for it. (I forget the actual term, but i am referring to a physical, recordable action in the brain, where it sets aside certain parts to do that which the person does on a regular basis.)
     
    Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs.
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