Win a copy of Modern JavaScript for the Impatient this week in the Server-Side JavaScript and NodeJS forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Ron McLeod
  • Paul Clapham
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Junilu Lacar
Sheriffs:
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Tim Cooke
  • Henry Wong
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • salvin francis
  • Frits Walraven
Bartenders:
  • Scott Selikoff
  • Piet Souris
  • Carey Brown

AJAX development is difficult

 
Greenhorn
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello everyone,

I'm a system architect and currently studying to use Ajax in a new project.

Hearing many discussion about Web 2.0. Looks like everyone thinks Ajax is the future of web applications. However I still think Ajax is still not ready.

As we are moving the user interface to the web browser, browser is no longer a document presentation client, but a application user interface rendering client. So, we are actually using HTML + Javascript as a UI modeling language.

However, to be a good development platform, it must have a number of features:
- Standard
- Portable
- Structural
- Code is easy to reuse
- Easy to code (can do simple thing with simple code)
- Easy to debug
- Reasonable development cost

I see Javascript can score a "F" grade in most subjects above. Some are because of historial problem, while others are cause by the lack of a good low-cost programming tools. I wonder what development tools I should use if I want to develop a very complicated AJAX UI(Notepad?). How can I trace my code in a page with 1000+ lines? How can I watch a variable in my code runtime(inserting alert()s?)?

If I have a programmer who don't know Java. He can still build a swing based UI in reasonable time with Eclipse and visual editor. However, if I have a programmer who don't know Javascript. Can he do similar thing with Javascript with notepad and a browser?

IMO, to make Ajax really work, we must first have a development tool that makes Javascript development as easy as writing Java under Eclipse (as least have some code-assist).
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 15304
6
Mac OS X IntelliJ IDE Chrome
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You haven't researched this subject very well. There are numerous Javascript editors out there that fill your development needs, with the exception of a visual editor because nothing in Javascript should be constructed the way a UI should.

Firefox has numerous wonderful plugins for debugging javascript. A tool I live by is Venkman's Javascript Debugger which lets you step through your javascript as it is being parsed by browser.

Oddly enough a google search on Javascript Debugger has this as the first hit. Obviously, you didn't search google before gathering your opinions.

I'm not saying Ajax is the best thing in the world. Like any technology it has it's place and can be over used and is to an extend overhyped IMHO. But that is neither here nor there with regards to your post. Seems a bit troll'ish to me, but we'll see where this goes.
 
author
Posts: 15385
6
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator


I see Javascript can score a "F" grade in most subjects above. Some are because of historial problem, while others are cause by the lack of a good low-cost programming tools. I wonder what development tools I should use if I want to develop a very complicated AJAX UI(Notepad?). How can I trace my code in a page with 1000+ lines? How can I watch a variable in my code runtime(inserting alert()s?)?



Um, you just need to open your eyes a bit. Download Firefox, install the Firebug extension. It will change the way you look at debugging and spotting errors. Most new IDEs have good support of JavaScript.


If I have a programmer who don't know Java. He can still build a swing based UI in reasonable time with Eclipse and visual editor. However, if I have a programmer who don't know Javascript. Can he do similar thing with Javascript with notepad and a browser?



There are things called toolkits out there that already do this for you. Anything from prototype.js to Dojo, to DWR, to GWT, and so on. Do a search for Ajax toolkits and you will be amazed.


IMO, to make Ajax really work, we must first have a development tool that makes Javascript development as easy as writing Java under Eclipse (as least have some code-assist).



IMHO: You need to understand tha language behind Ajax before you can say anything about it. I could say the say exact thing about coding applets. They are piece of crap because I do not understand how to code them. How can anyone architect a good solution without understanding the engine that is behind it.

Your perception is exactly what a lot of seasoned developers on the server see. They are going into a cary place where unmanaged code is now ruling the world.

I would say pick up a book on the subject. I would say mine (I am biased), read it and understand it. There is more to Ajax than just JavaScript. (But JavaScript is the big part.) Hire someone that knows Ajax, goto a conference, or goto training.

Can you get away with not using Ajax? Yes....

Eric
 
Alex Hui
Greenhorn
Posts: 4
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Dear everyone,

Thanks for all reply.

Please don't be mistaken I'm a ajax hater. To me Javascript and Ajax is just another way to implement application UI presentation. Anyway this will not replace all server side investment.

My point is, out of my experience, complicated UI development with Javascript is never as straight forward as other languages like swing or VB (and traditional html forms with proper server side control). Most likely developers will have to face many browser specific issues, compatibility issues (different js library won't works well together, or one js component can't be use twice on the same page). Even a small change may take days to make.

Life will be easier if there is a powerful and free Javascript editor that most people are using (like eclipse). Please tell me if you know one.

Glad to see there are some Javascript library the help Ajax development. That's the beginning of code reuse. But why it doesn't comes with its offical documentation? Like every Java API have its own Javadoc?
 
author & internet detective
Posts: 40169
812
Eclipse IDE VI Editor Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think a lot of the problem is that we are used to using JavaScript for tiny problems. So we didn't follow much development process and created code that is hard to understand/maintain.

For an AJAX application, it is more important to create code worthy of production. I was very impressed with how Eric's book addressed this.
 
Marshal
Posts: 67445
173
Mac Mac OS X IntelliJ IDE jQuery Java
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The book being referred to is Ajax in Action by Dave Crane and Eric.
 
Don't listen to Steve. Just read this tiny ad:
Thread Boost feature
https://coderanch.com/t/674455/Thread-Boost-feature
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic