Read this?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What is the difference between pople who want to become US citizen and somehow managed to obtain an immigrant visa and those who also want to become US citizen but could only get a non-immigrant visa with hope to finally find a way to stay? The last group has to work harder! Why do you like one group and do not like another?
By the way, US government runs a lottery for green card giveway! You will like people who won more than those who first worked hard to get here and then lived and worked here for several years?

Yup, i still dont get it.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:

Tom, I get it. You dont like indians period.

What crap! That is an offensive and stupid statement. You don't know me so how dare you make a statement like that. I am in favor of legal immigration. I am opposed to H1-Bs from any country whether it is India, Pakistan, China, Russia, or Great Britian. The H1-B program sucks. It has outlived its usefulness and should be abolished.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
ahem, You are "SUPPOSED" to leave the country if you DO NOT apply for your green card, there are also rules how to convert LEGALLY to a citizen. Well i applied and paid money and they gladly are going to give me one.

Great! If you get a green card then I am thrilled for you. I have no problem with people who immigate to the US legally. I have a problem with the H1-B program.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What is the difference between pople who want to become US citizen and somehow managed to obtain an immigrant visa and those who also want to become US citizen but could only get a non-immigrant visa with hope to finally find a way to stay? The last group has to work harder!

What does working hard have to do with it? Especially if by working hard they deprived a citizen or naturalized alien a job? The H1-B program is a non-immigrant visa. When you sign on the dotted line it says, "having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States..." The visa says that you are coming here temporarily and that you intend on retunring home! Why should I give that person a better chance than someone else? Because they were a liar?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What crap! That is an offensive and stupid statement. You don't know me so how dare you make a statement like that. I am in favor of legal immigration. I am opposed to H1-Bs from any country whether it is India, Pakistan, China, Russia, or Great Britian. The H1-B program sucks. It has outlived its usefulness and should be abolished.

Gotta love ya tom. You are all for 'LEGAL' immigration. Show me a link or page of documentation at http://www.bcis.gov that says IT IS ILLEGAL TO COME OVER HERE ON H1 AND APPLY FOR A GREEN CARD AND BECOME A LEGAL IMMIGRANT and later become a LEGAL citizen. did i get my FACTS wrong? you prove me wrong i wont make any more arguments. People on H1 and currently living in US of A are not use and throw Materialistic things, whenever you have a problem of Y2K or internet boom (not enough people to do the job) call em and when u do not need them dispose them Off. they are living and breathing people just like you and have ambitions. so they are doing everything 'LEGALLY' to become an 'LEGAL IMMIGRANT' as per the LAW.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
Gotta love ya tom. You are all for 'LEGAL' immigration. Show me a link or page of documentation at http://www.bcis.gov that says IT IS ILLEGAL TO COME OVER HERE ON H1 AND APPLY FOR A GREEN CARD AND BECOME A LEGAL IMMIGRANT and later become a LEGAL citizen.

[edited by moderator] I said that I have nothing against people being here on green cards. If they came over on an H1-B and were lucky enough to switch to a green card then great. For all the others on an H1-B it is time to send them home. The H1-B is not an immigrant visa even though some people treat it taht way.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What is the difference between pople who want to become US citizen and somehow managed to obtain an immigrant visa and those who also want to become US citizen but could only get a non-immigrant visa with hope to finally find a way to stay? The last group has to work harder! Why do you like one group and do not like another?
By the way, US government runs a lottery for green card giveway! You will like people who won more than those who first worked hard to get here and then lived and worked here for several years?

Map, I'm not sure if you get it. Nobody has said they have a problem with H1-B visa holders. The problem is with the H1-B visa program itself as it applies to the IT sector. Let's all repeat this together... the problem is with the H1-B visa program as it applies to the IT sector, not with those holding the visas.
The program is for a very specific purpose. When the purpose the program is supposed to serve is no longer valid, and when the program is being used and abused for purposes other than its intent, then the program as it applies in this situation should be discontinued. The program is not in any way meant to serve as a tool to enhance immigration. There are other programs for that. However, the program does allow provisions for those who have been working under it to seek immigration, and that is a good thing and a benefit for both those here under the program and the nation as a whole.
I don't think anyone here will disagree that IT workers who wish to immigrate to the US is in any way a bad thing. What people have a problem with is US corporations misusing a non-immigrant visa program n order to supplant US citizen and legal immigrant labor with lower cost foreign labor, be they from Brazil, Russia, Great Britain, Australia, China, India, or anywhere else for that matter. That is not what the visa is legally supposed to be used for, however that is what it is being used for. As this government program has been illegaly abused to the detriment of its citizens, and further as the conditions no longer exist under which IT jobs were applied to this program, it stands to reason that the correct course of action is to eradicate, or at the very least indefinitely suspend the program as it applies to IT. I don't even see how anybody could seriously mount a counter argument to this, which is probably why there have been no serious counter arguments presented here.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What does working hard have to do with it? Especially if by working hard they deprived a citizen or naturalized alien a job? The H1-B program is a non-immigrant visa. When you sign on the dotted line it says, "having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States..." The visa says that you are coming here temporarily and that you intend on retunring home! Why should I give that person a better chance than someone else? Because they were a liar?

Too bad . Then why in the heavens sake the same people who wrote that line gave All legal facilitations to become a LEGAL IMMIGRANT LATER. Tell me you never lied in your entire life tom, i will be more than happy to give you some stones to hit me as it is in bible

[Michael Ernest]

Imagine that, righteous talk from someone named Anonymous.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Imagine that, righteous talk from someone named Anonymous.

Did i say i am righteous? we are not even going there. all i am saying is before you call some one a liar you better watch your finger four of em are pointing towards you.

[Anonymous]

Ethically/Morally it is not a right thing to stay back for a person who comes here on H1. But you (America) are kind enough to let em people stay over here LEGALLY by abiding the LAW. So either (choose any of the following options )
A. Make ammendments to current H1 law saying that people who apply for any NEW H1s after their stipulated period of time CANNOT Apply for green card and MUST GO back. If they want to be become a legal immigrant they choose some other programs after they go back to their country
B. Abolish All new H1's period.
As in return lets make peace over here. Give a stipulated period of time over here for all the OLD H1 folks to apply for a green card and if they fail second part of option A applies. Thats the best (or atleast good for those who are on H1 here already) I could come up with. Any thoughts people?
I seriously doubt though, if your politicians will go for option B.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

There's this company www.whizlabs.com. They sell certification software. I think it's an Indian company. Looks like they charge US prices for their software. So much for getting a better price on an Indian book.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Great! If you get a green card then I am thrilled for you. I have no problem with people who immigate to the US legally. I have a problem with the H1-B program.

What is that probLEM?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
There's this company www.whizlabs.com. They sell certification software. I think it's an Indian company. Looks like they charge US prices for their software. So much for getting a better price on an Indian book.

Read abt them and then make comments

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
Imagine that, righteous talk from someone named Anonymous.

Some sensible sheriffs here....not racists like some others.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

He's an American. Whatever ethnic background an American has, they are still Americans. Sun, by the way, is an American company as well. James Gosling, the person who is primarily credited with creating Java (although there were several others), happens to be Canadian.

Indian brain though....

[Anonymous]

I bet tomorrow morning when I wake up this thread should will go another 3 or 4 pages. Thats when developers in india wake up

[Thomas Paul]

How's this for a proposal?
1) Do not issue any new H1-B's.
2) Anyone who is holding an H1-B and has applied for permanent residence as of Sept 1, 2003 will be allowed to remain until their residency status is either accepted or rejected.
3) All other H1-B holders will have their H1-B visas revoked as of Dec 31, 2003 and will have to return to their home country.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
How's this for a proposal?
1) Do not issue any new H1-B's.
2) Anyone who is holding an H1-B and has applied for permanent residence as of Sept 1, 2003 will be allowed to remain until their residency status is either accepted or rejected.
3) All other H1-B holders will have their H1-B visas revoked as of Dec 31, 2003 and will have to return to their home country.

1, agreed, 2, agreed, 3, Tom you got to be sensible over here its like giving them around 3 months to sell their houses, cars everything they have also apply visa for india for their citizen babies (TOO MANY OF EM and seriously the way INS here works takes a lot of time. both indian and american), dispose everything they have. let em apply for a legal residence and let them go through the process of point 2 which you have mentioned if either they fail fail to apply before 31 will have to return to their home country. I think practically this country can accommodate that many people as they are already here legally and working.
If you agree for 3 then we got a deal over here
(I know its stupid but you aint implementing the LAW and neither of us have to agree with each other but hey atleast we can calm ourselves down for now)

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
3, Tom you got to be sensible over here its like giving them around 3 months to sell their houses, cars everything they have also apply visa for india for their citizen babies (TOO MANY OF EM and seriously the way INS here works takes a lot of time. both indian and american), dispose everything they have.

I can't agree to this. There are too many unemployed American IT workers (including Indians who are here on permanent visas). People who are here on H1-B's (which are supposed to be for three years) had no business buying houses and settling in as if they were on immigrant status. It might be tough for them but there are a lot of US IT workers who lost their jobs because of H1-B holders.
Besides, if an H1-B gets fired they have only 60 days (or is it 30) to find a new job or get out of the country.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I can't agree to this. There are too many unemployed American IT workers (including Indians who are here on permanent visas). People who are here on H1-B's (which are supposed to be for three years) had no business buying houses and settling in as if they were on immigrant status. It might be tough for them but there are a lot of US IT workers who lost their jobs because of H1-B holders.
Besides, if an H1-B gets fired they have only 60 days (or is it 30) to find a new job or get out of the country.
[ September 04, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

Well corporations promised them the la la land. People are people irrespective of race, creed or color EVERY ONE ON THIS EARTH WILL SEEK FOR A BETTER LIFE. If you are telling me that you are giving a PAST date and telling me that if you had done that then u are staying or else get the hell outta here it is like punishing people for for the mistakes of all the corporations. Mahatma Gandhi(Who is Congress Party Member though he never seeked any power as a politician) told people protest peacefully we shall get freedom then the people who believed in him followed him and got what they wanted (Freedom). if we suppose that we came to know that Gandhi sold himself (Cmon my indian brothers dont kill me over here) to Britishers why should the people suffer the consequences.
You have a choice over here, CORPORATIONS, American INS/SYSTEM ALLOWED these people here my point is why should they suffer, why are people being punished not the CORPORATIONS OR AMERICAN INS, who created the problem???
I do not agree with you on the third one either.

[John Smith]

[edited by moderator] I said that I have nothing against people being here on green cards.
It's very cute to see a moderator editing a sheriff's post. :roll:

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason: Map, I'm not sure if you get it. Nobody has said they have a problem with H1-B visa holders.
I was responding to these words:
Tom: H1-B holders are not immigrants. They are invited to the US for a specific period of time and when that time is up they are supposed to go home. I am not talking about any other class of immigrants. I love immigrants and am more than willing to increase the quota of immigrants into the USA.
I read this as "I love immigrants but I do not love H1-B holders because H1-B holders are not immigrants". If I am wrong, correct me.
Am I wrong to surmise that a significant percent of H1 holders see H1 visa as a potential way to become a US citizens? Is it a big secret that a lot of H1 do become US green card holder and then possibly citizens?
Tom doesn’t like that they first have to say they do not have intention to stay and then they do show these intentions. That's very bad, but tell me what are legal ways for a young Indian male to become a US citizens?
Are you sure you do not idealize legal immigrants? Not to say anything bad about them, but from what I observed these are either relatives of those who became US citizens earlier (often parents, who are either close to retirement age or retired), women who married US citizens (often with bad English and no marketable profession (women, not US citizens)), weird religious groups I never heard about, various asylum seekers (Jews used to be most prominent group and should I say that you could buy a paper that prove your Jewiess on black market? ). Cynical as I am, but through H1 visa you get young, well-educated, English-speaking people. This kind of immigration is considered an economical premium for the country because you get "ready to use" workers! I really do not understand why you do not love them, Tom, as this my philippic is addressed to Tom only and is written in response to the words of him I quoted above.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Are you sure you do not idealize legal immigrants? Not to say anything bad about them, but from what I observed these are either relatives of those who became US citizens earlier (often parents, who are either close to retirement age or retired), women who married US citizens (often with bad English and no marketable profession (women, not US citizens)), weird religious groups I never heard about, various asylum seekers (Jews used to be most prominent group and should I say that you could buy a paper that prove your Jewiess on black market? ). Cynical as I am, but through H1 visa you get young, well-educated, English-speaking people. This kind of immigration is considered an economical premium for the country because you get "ready to use" workers! I really do not understand why you do not love them, Tom, as this my philippic is addressed to Tom only and is written in response to the words of him I quoted above.

you can also buy a US Citizen wife or husband at a rate of 1500$ to 5000$ at plenty of places in US. Convenient and affordable Monthly premiums too. Or become a specialized preacher for $$$$. Pay money to join some US Favored Group which is banished in some countries and seek asylum. LOL

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:
you can also buy a US Citizen wife or husband at a rate of 1500$ to 5000$ at plenty of places in US. Convenient and affordable Monthly premiums too. Or become a specialized preacher for $$$$. Pay money to join some US Favored Group which is banished in some countries and seek asylum. LOL

A woman in NYC was just arrested for marrying for money. She will be doing 5 years and the men (yes plural) that she married are all being deported.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Cynical as I am, but through H1 visa you get young, well-educated, English-speaking people. This kind of immigration is considered an economical premium for the country because you get "ready to use" workers! I really do not understand why you do not love them, Tom, as this my philippic is addressed to Tom only and is written in response to the words of him I quoted above.

So you are in favor of immigration as long as they are the "right kind" of immigrants? So much for "bring me your huddled masses".
Let's not kid oursleves. Most H1-Bs will not get green cards. They still have to get them through the quota system just like everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

A woman in NYC was just arrested for marrying for money. She will be doing 5 years and the men (yes plural) that she married are all being deported.

thats just a drop in an ocean. you are king unless you are caught. you show me one thing like that i will show you a thousand success :roll: stories. He probably has not become a citizen by time they arrested him and deported him. If he has become a citizen, he would automatically lose his earlier citizenship from his country and US cannot deport him as the other country will not accept him. I 've heard the only case US deported a citizen (I may be wrong :roll: ) is that nazi dude to israel for prosecution, now that one is a major criminal and big fish

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

So you are in favor of immigration as long as they are the "right kind" of immigrants? So much for "bring me your huddled masses".
Let's not kid oursleves. Most H1-Bs will not get green cards. They still have to get them through the quota system just like everyone else.

Good thing is they will not reject the case cause THIS year's quota is over, they are rolled over for next year's quota . If a person waited for 10 years big deal he will wait another 2 or 3 years. Never heard H1-B's getting rejected for green cards IN MY FRIEND'S circle.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Read abt them and then make comments

Awhile back when I tried their trail software. I not only thought it was overpriced, I THOUGHT IT SUCKED.
I bet its better now and IMO they have raised the average passing scores on SCEA by leaking the question.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

Awhile back when I tried their trail software. I not only thought it was overpriced, I THOUGHT IT SUCKED.
I bet its better now and IMO they have raised the average passing scores on SCEA by leaking the question.

75$ my A#@. I'd rather bust my b#@@ and put an extra month if i have to achieve knowledge and go take the test. Aint no easy route to success baby.
150$ - Cert exam (No choice to buy if you want a tag on your resume)
75$ - Sample tests (Hell no way, for confidence I'd rather plenty of free mock tests out there)
35-50$ - Cert prep book only (Nope. Official Documentation Only )

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by <cutlex>:
If you blame indians why u wrote a book abt eclipse .Sun is cofounded by an indian. What java rt now is just coz of hard work of so many indians
So basically what you achieved rt now is just coz of indians.

I've heard things like this a couple of times recently - about how the American IT industry only exists because of Indian labor, or things to that effect. To that, I have only this list:
Laser
Computer
Transistor
FORTRAN
COBOL
RPG
ASCII
EBCDIC
Tape Drive
Hard Disk Drive
CRT
3270
5250
Semiconductor
Unix
RDB
C Language
Laser Printer
Microprocessor
Mouse
Smalltalk
Ethernet
DOS/Windows
SQL
Async
Bisync
BASIC
Diskette
Modem
PC
Internet
Java Language
IDEs
Visual Age for Java
Eclipse
What it represents, well, that's for you to determine. My head hurts, and I am going to sleep, as well as retiring from this thread, and taking a breather from these sorts of topics for a little bit.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

My head hurts, and I am going to sleep, as well as retiring from this thread, and taking a breather from these sorts of topics for a little bit.
You are going to miss all the fun!

[Mapraputa Is]

The H1-B program is a non-immigrant visa. When you sign on the dotted line it says, "having a residence in a foreign country which he has no intention of abandoning who is coming temporarily to the United States..." The visa says that you are coming here temporarily and that you intend on retunring home! Why should I give that person a better chance than someone else? Because they were a liar?
What crap! That is an offensive and stupid statement. You don't know these people so how dare you make a statement like that. What if they did not have any intention to stay, but after they saw with their own eyes how great this country is, they changed their mind?

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
What if they did not have any intention to stay, but after they saw with their own eyes how great this country is, they changed their mind?
Apply for immigrant status? Seems like the H1-B is a contract. In my case when the second year of my contract is finished Korea, I'll be expected to leave. I have no problem with that. I have thought about staying on afterwards. If I want to do that I'll have to find another job, apply for residency or citizenship. In the meantime the existing "contract" stands. Its not like current H1-B holders are using a loophole to escape persecution in their native countries is it? They're not being sent back to concentration camps, they're just going home. If they want to live in the US, they can apply like everyone else.

[Richard Hawkes]

... or marry a Yankee!

[R K Singh]

Ravish, statements like these are hugely annoying. You bitch if I bring up India in context, and then you bitch about OLD posts if I do not. QUIT WHINING.

First cool down man.
I had to quote part of your post where you talked about specifically Indian visa holders because no one was able to see why "Sunitha Raghu" was upset.
And when I talked about Indian abusers of the H- and L- visa, I meant specifically people like this:
And you generalised the term. Ask yourself, should one generalise any term?

Or companies like this (these are just two of many, many such sites):
http://www.path2usa.com/
http://www.newsoftsolutions.com/

These are migration consultant companies not software consultants.
The taxi driver[as I have been told that most drivers are Indians/Pakistani], teachers [as per news no one wants to teach in the poorest state of US(some name with M..) ], nurses, etc .. generally go to US through these migration consultants.
No SW engineer will go anywhere without a job.
Everyday you see advertisement for migration to Australia/Canada/NZ/USA/.. in papers here.
I dont see anything wrong in it as everything is as per law of their country.
These are not people seeking to fill jobs where they cannot find qulaified American workers. These are people specifically trying to get jobs in America for foreign workers at the expense of qualified Americans.
As I have said earlier, if pay will be same then, only the deserving candidate will get the job. He wont be outsider or low wage worker but the best candidate to suit the job.
This goes against the letter AND the spirit of the law.
Obviously, one should try to enforce law.
If you think someone is stealing your money, then you will call police or stop earning money.
You take offense when I say things about Indian companies, but you don't say one word about these obvious abuses.
I am simply saying that one can not generalise any thing. Your wording was "Indian visa abusers", isnt it that you are saying that Indian visa holders are abusers or I am missing something.....
You take offense when I say things about Indian companies, but you don't say one word about these obvious abuses.
Think and then tell, is it only Indian companies ? How can one generalise statement?
You could have said some Indian companies like wipro, TCS are exploiting H-/L- visas and US should stop this exploitation by making rules more tough.
Believe me if anyone would have said anything after that.
Did you read Sunitha's post? It was pain of a H1 visa holder[I think she is one with H1, else she would have not written that post.]
And you simply said "Indian visa abusers" ??
Can I say, americans do not want H1B visa policy.
I am wrong here, I cant say this, I should not say this. Even if I have to say, I think I will say, "most of the americans" do not want H1B visa policy.
But it's not going to work, not with me,
If one decides not to change then no one can change him.
Can anyone make OBL believe that there is one God ?? [No, I am not compairing anyone with OBL, its just an example.]
and not with anyone here in the States who actually has done the research to see the terrible and ongoing abuses of these policies.
As I have said earlier, there are always more than one ways to do anything.
But I find the program of abolishing or restricting H-/L- slightly negative in approach.
All the best.
And BTW, Joe, you should not say things like this after taking any name, with me its OK but someone else might object on this OR who knows Jason deletes your post.

Ravish, statements like these are hugely annoying. You bitch if I bring up India in context, and then you bitch about OLD posts if I do not. QUIT WHINING.

AW I have not mind it at all.
and last but not least who whins, world(MD) knows.
PS: please read you as one except the last paragraph where I am addressing Joe.

[Steve Wink]

Best-shoring - is that another of those lovely euphamisms like right-sizing and collatoral damage?

[Thomas Paul]

"Indian visa abusers" is not saying that every Indian is a visa abuser! Joe was talking about those from India who are abusing visas. Unfortunately there are a lot of companies in India that are doing this and a lot of companies in the US that are helping them do it.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
"Indian visa abusers" is not saying that every Indian is a visa abuser! Joe was talking about those from India who are abusing visas. Unfortunately there are a lot of companies in India that are doing this and a lot of companies in the US that are helping them do it.

Thanks for clearing, I understand it.
But people should be careful while generalising the statement.

Originally posted by R K Singh:
You could have said some Indian companies like wipro, TCS are exploiting H-/L- visas and US should stop this exploitation by making rules more tough.
Believe me if anyone would have said anything after that.

even there is no need to take the name of companies also.
No, I dont expect any apology or anything.
For me it will be enough if people realize only what they are saying/doing and be open to change.
AW good news for all the supporters of abolishing H1B.
"US plans to ban issue of H1-B visa." This is headline on http://www.msn.co.in but I am not able to follow the link.

[Avi Nash]

If Americans are reeally facing problems why are they not ready to work for the same salary as their H1 counterparts. If an H1 guy can make a living with his "cheap" salary, then why cant a US guy. Or should do it the other way round, let the salary be same (either cheaper or higher), which I feel will be fairer and posts a good competition and only the good ones get the job.