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The Savage Nation

 
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Well, for not to go too far, let's take a look how this place is run. How are new moderators chosen? Do all Java Ranchers participate in free and equal elections? Nothing even close. Ruling clique watches and chooses whoever it damn pleased to choose. Bad news: it worked so far.
This system is very similar to how Soviet society was ruled: there were formal elections, but really everything was decided within ruling clique. Was it too bad? Bad news: it was not.
 
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From what I have heard, what happened in Russia was dissolution of order.
There were similar phenomens in Chile prior to Pinochet golpe under Allende-years(I am anti-Pinochetist). Dissolution of order might be worse than communism.
There is some theory in history science that revolutions often change only the outer appearance, but the deeper mechanism in the working of the society does not change.
Ask people in Poland, Czechs, Slovens, Slovaks or (highly subventionized) East Germans. I am quite sure the mayority prefer the situation now to the situation 13 years ago.
There was some nostalgia-wave in eastern germany some time ago, but its fading away, in spite of the high rates of unemployment.
The faschism == communism has the basis in some liberal (in the european, Adam Smith sense, not the americans democrats=liberals) line of argumentation. Both ideologies state to have discovered the sense of history (communist or germanic paradise), or something the like.
Here is the classic book of capitalistic communism critique (or other books from same author): v. hayek. In ranch context: quite a Herschbergish book.
Those are the intelectual roots of western anti-communism.
[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
mister krabs
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The difference is that the west values the individual while in many other places the individual is not that highly respected and the state is given preference over the indvidual. The entire western justice system is based on the rights of the individual over the rights of the state.
 
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Does everyone think that if George W. can't get the Iraqi democracy up and running perfectly in one week, that he is a war-mongering, incompassionate, idiot??
Remember the US had to bargain with Slavery on its onset. Here's the price we paid for that mistake:
Civil War Losses

from above URL:
More Americans died in the Civil War than in all of America's other wars combined. From the French and Indian wars of the 1750's through the hostilities in Korea in the 1950's (with the exception of the Civil War), 606,000 American soldiers died in the line of duty. In the Civil War alone, over 618,000 men perished in four years of fighting.


We've also had to deal with the aftermath of slavery: Jim Crow and the US Civil Rights Movement.
We've had prohibition which failed and led to the strength of the Mafia.
We've had McCarthyism and the purge of the "Communists".
We've had the VietNam War and the Anti-War Movement
We've had our intelligence system fail and allow bin Laden to rise to power.
I don't think ANY of the above are good grounds for putting the British back in power here.
Also, an Iraqi democracy may not work the way the US democracy works. They may not want it to do so. For example, suppose they vote in prohibition and simply love that it exists and it works for them?? We might find it odd, but it might work for them. I do think it is possible for that country of people to come up with a democracy that fits their needs. They'll have to earn their happiness, as the US, Germany, Japan did. NOTHING IS FOR FREE...
 
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

"The political orthodoxy that demonizes communism permeates the entire political perspective. Even people on the Left have internalized the liberal/conservative ideology that equates fascism and communism as equally evil totalitarian twins, two major mass movements of the twentieth century. This book attempts to show the enormous differences between fascism and communism both past and present, both in theory and practice, especially in regard to questions of social equality, private capital accumulation, and class interest.
The orthodox mythology also would have us believe that the Western democracies (with the United States leading the way) have opposed both totalitarian systems with equal vigor. In fact, U.S. leaders have been dedicated above all to making the world safe for global corporate investment and the private profit system. Pursuant of this goal, they have used fascist to protect capitalism, while claiming to be saving democracy from communism."
Michael Parenti. Blackshirts & Reds.
[ March 05, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]


Why do you continue with these comments? It has been demonstrated "ad nauseuam" in this thread that those murdered in the name of communism approximately equaled those murdered in the name of fascism. The motives and means were different, yes, but how important is that when you are overwhelmed with the stinking stench of millions of murdered corpses?
Yes, I know you have known many fine, decent communists in your day. But its many of those fine, decent, idealistic communists who helped kill those millions. In order to build a better society, to protect the revolution, etc, these same fine people will not object to a few "necessary" deaths here and there.
The essential dichotomy is not between communism and fascism, its between statism and individualism. Or, stated as a question; does the individual exist for the state (communism/fascism say yes), or does the state exist for the individual (US says yes to this)?
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Why do you continue with these comments? It has been demonstrated "ad nauseuam" in this thread that those murdered in the name of communism approximately equaled those murdered in the name of fascism. The motives and means were different, yes, but how important is that when you are overwhelmed with the stinking stench of millions of murdered corpses?


Well, I guess it's the best approximation of what communism is about we can achieve... So be it.
Here is another similar approximation. This picture was submitted by one of our moderators to represent her on the contact page.

[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]
 
frank davis
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

Well, I guess it's the best approximation of what communism is about we can achieve... So be it.
Here is another similar approximation. This picture was submitted by one of our moderators to represent her on the contact page.

[ March 07, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]


Not a very good approximation in either case...
The most essential point would be the final result, or the "bottom line", as we Americans like to say.
But, for our idle academic interest continue on. In what ways where fascism and communism not "equally evil totalitarian twins"?
 
John Dunn
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Can you say 'self-destruct'??
 
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