is the War on Terror a War on Islam?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Was the torch holder voted for, or is it kinda self-appointed?

A point of order - the French gave it to us. But mostly I like your arguements, Map.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

A point of order - the French gave it to us. But mostly I like your arguements, Map.

I missed the arguments...

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by herb slocomb :
In WWII, where is this place that the British/Europeans broke the German defenses to the extent that it decisively altered the course of the war? I do not believe such a place existed.

Rommel in North Africa(who tried to stop Hitler/The Nazi's in his own way) ,Gallipoli, Indo-China (Malaysia,Burma), "Battle of the Bulge" was wagered in eastern Belgium and Northern Luxembourg.

And after Hiroshima , it would have been difficult for the British government to demand compensation.
Pacific War

It is possible Churchill will be remembered for his oratory if nothing else.
regards
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
This speaks for itself. I should have known better than to try to be civil.

Hell even I could see the there, indicating she was razzing you.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
A point of order - the French gave it to us.

Yeah, but we had to shave her armpits first before we set her out on the island.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Rommel in North Africa(who tried to stop Hitler/The Nazi's in his own way) ,

The bulk of the Nazi forces were never in North Africa. North Africa was never of such strategic impotance that the outcome of the war depended on it. Sure it was helpfull for its proximity to oil reserves, but the Germans had succeeded very well in making synthetic oil. Without the destruction of the Nazis by the US in Europe, the Nazi regime could have endured forever and staged further invasions.

Gallipoli,

This was a disaster,
http://www.malaspina.com/site/person_321.asp

Indo-China (Malaysia,Burma),

It was the US that took Okinawa and the islands leading to Japan that would have set the stage for a final bloody invasion had not the war been cut mericfully short with atomicc devices.

"Battle of the Bulge" was wagered in eastern Belgium and Northern Luxembourg.

The Battle of the Bulge was by far an American vs Nazi affair. The number of Brits involved was not significant. http://helios.acomp.usf.edu/~dsargent/
So, far you've only supported my initial claims....

And after Hiroshima , it would have been difficult for the British government to demand compensation.
Pacific War

Japan committed many atrocities during the war and whether they got nuked or not should have no bearing on compensating the claims by the British, the North Koreans ("The Rape of Nanking"), or the Chinese victims.

It is possible Churchill will be remembered for his oratory if nothing else.
regards
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing a cynicism with the America, Love it or Leave it sentiment that some are carrying the torch for here.
Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing some disagreement with an attitude that the US is the greatest and everything the US does is noble.
In many instances the US has behaved grandly. IMO today in the Iraq theater the US is behaving grandly. But I can remember 1972. I can still hear four dead in Ohio, Why?. I believe that Joe and his ilk have selective memory.
History is replete with US sins.
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Jason: Hell even I could see the :roll: there, indicating she was razzing you.
I thought this is how American males resolve conflicts.
But this is a lesson to me - never try to speak foreign (male) language until you learnt it

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing a cynicism with the America, Love it or Leave it sentiment that some are carrying the torch for here.

Off base

Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing some disagreement with an attitude that the US is the greatest and everything the US does is noble.

Again.

In many instances the US has behaved grandly. IMO today in the Iraq theater the US is behaving grandly. But I can remember 1972. I can still hear four dead in Ohio, Why?.

Because it was the American thing to do ? :roll:
Because it was official policy to execute protestors ? :roll:
Because it was part of ideals and principles as outlined in our constitution? :roll:
Because that's what the majority of Americans wanted? :roll:

Or was it the work of some aberrants

I believe that Joe and his ilk have selective memory.
History is replete with US sins.

Worse than selective memory is a lack of understanding of America and its ideals. No one claimed the US has ever completley realized its ideals. No one, let alone a country, can make such a claim. However, there can be a justifiable pride in setting up ideals, making efforts towards them, and and actually achieving them to some degree.
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ][/QB]

[HS Thomas]

herb, by that last quote I meant that there doesn't seem to be many places or memorials to commemorate him. Not even a road or a Churchill Day.
There is a village in North Oxfordshire called Churchill with a War memorial but not to his memorial. Lots of older folk do remember and some visit the various Churchillian societies.
It seems the British shoved all that under the carpet and started concentrating on it's Empires,some who respected the British for coming to their aid. Most also demanded independence but the Empire was mostly willing to fight. The final result was The Commonwealth which is still quite a remarkable organisation.
regards
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing a But I can remember 1972. I can still hear four dead in Ohio, Why?.

I understand your point, but sorry but I feel the need to correct a commonly held misconception. The people shot at Kent State were shot by Ohio National Guardsmen, called to service by the Governor of Ohio. They were not federal troops.

[Mapraputa Is]

Rufus: Maybe I'm off base, but I get a feeling that Map is expressing a cynicism with the America, Love it or Leave it sentiment that
some are carrying the torch for here.
When I was leaving Russia, I thought I cannot be more cynical than I already was.
And you know what? Turned out, I was a hopeless romantic.
Only after immersing myself into US political life I learnt what real cynism is about.
I think, this country (USA) mission is to prove to the world that a human being can never raise above Neanderthal man level.
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
think, this country (USA) mission is to prove to the world that a human being can never raised above Neanderthal man level.
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

Guess I succeeded in confirming her suspicions...

[Joe Pluta]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Hell even I could see the there, indicating she was razzing you.

Yeah, but that was uncalled for. I was asking her to stop using my name in this thread, and the only polite answer at that point was "Okay, I'll stop."
I was making a simple request, which Map never even addressed; instead she insisted it wasn't her fault and then went on to poke fun at me. Snide comments, regardless of the number of smileys, were entirely inappropriate as a response to that request, which was in no way bantering. Just because you put a smiley on something doesn't make it an appropriate response.
But anyway, no harm no foul. I just wanted to get my name out of this thread, and here I am posting again, thereby extending my stay here. How's THAT for not getting the idea? So, I'm outta here, hopefully for good.
Joe

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:
herb, by that last quote I meant that there doesn't seem to be many places or memorials to commemorate him. Not even a road or a Churchill Day.

The man who successfully lead his nation in defending all of Western civilization from Nazism, has not even a road. The man who could have and would have averted WII has not a holiday... I'm speechless.
What causes this? That would make a good thread.
Here in Miami, South American generals and accident victims get their own streets...

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I can hear the drone of the Luftwaffe over London, the bombs screaming to their fiery destinations. I can see the women and children coming out of the basement.
I can still hear

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

And I can understand why the rest of the world thinks Americans are arrogant and conceited when they insuniate, the Americans won the war. The allies were indispensable.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Winston Churchill:
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender

Am I the only one who associates that speech with an Iron Maiden song?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

No it's a Supertramp song.

[HS Thomas]

Originally posted by herb slocomb :
What causes this? That would make a good thread.

There seems to be a mystery that no one talks about openly. Collapse of government and Empire perhaps ? WW III ? The symbol that Churchill represented was enough. In Britain there is a monarchy German by blood-line (confusing how that happened after Alfred the Great and Queen Boadicea) that was pro-Germanic idealistic and somewhat pro-Nazi but the Government had to make sure that they were seen to be pro-British. To the extent that come the Russian Revolution after the WWI the King refused assylum to Prince Nicholas and his family.
There is of course the story of Prince Edward and Wallis Simpson, an American.
That the British got to where they are is a testament to the British people as mixed as they are and it's no surprises that they would want to repeat the formula.
Heck ! It's a testament to the whole human race. Despite the economists!
regards
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[HS Thomas]

I see everyone has avoided the Irish Question ! :roll:
regards

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
And I can understand why the rest of the world thinks Americans are arrogant and conceited when they insuniate, the Americans won the war.

The US did win the war. Without the offensive capability provided by the US, the war would not have won. The US has provided material assistance to the Soviets and to Britain (before the US even entered war)

The allies were indispensable.

Yes, Britain was indispensable. Britain, essentially alone, stopped the Nazi advance. This forced the Nazis to fight a two front war and divide their forces. But stopping a foe is one thing; driving him back hundreds and hundreds of miles is entirely different. It was the US that did the bulk of driving back the Nazis from the beaches to Berlin, and the Japanese from Tarawa, Guadcana, Iowa Jima, to Okinana.

[HS Thomas]

The title of a TV program that's currently running.
The Gladiators of WWII - Free French Forces
Naval Officer often described as the real life model for James Bond - Patrick Dalzel-Job.
He could ski backwards, navigate a midget submarine, and undertake the riskiest parachute jumps. His WW II exploits are the epitome of derring do behind enemy lines. And like Bond he was a maverick who defied orders when he considered it necessary.
When young he spent time sailing in Norway and volunteered his services to the Navy for his knowledge of the Norwegian coastline and was immediately called to help run The Allied North-West Expeditionary Forces During this operation several thousands of troops were transported often under heavy ombardment not a single soldier was lost at sea." but after the Nazis were driven out of the fishing town of Narvik in May 1940,Dalzel-Job became convinced there would be reprisals against the local population. In defiance of orders not to get involved with civilians he launched a daring rescue operation in which he evacuated the entire 4500 strong community using a fleet of local fishing boats. Within days German bombers attacked the village. Thanks to his acton only four Norwegians died. He escaped court martial for insubordination by the intervention of King Haakon VII who awarded him one of Norways highest honours.
Real life James Bond
Rommel is also considered a hero Desert Fox
So that was a lot to contend with.
Finally, a memorial to churchill.
The United States Navy destroyer USS Winston S. Churchill (DD-81) is named in his honour. Churchill was the first person to be made an Honorary Citizen of the United States.

regards
[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Churchill was the first person to be made an Honorary Citizen of the United States.

[ October 30, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

That's cool. We should have made up a special medal, like Defender of Western Civilization, for him. Speaking of Defender's of the West, and to remind us of the aggressive, military, history of Islam, last week was the annivaersary of Charles "The Hammer" Martel. He (French no less!; but with German allies!) saved Europe by repelling rampaging brutal Muslims at the decsive battle of Tours.

[Mapraputa Is]

Yes, Britain was indispensable. Britain, essentially alone, stopped the Nazi advance. This forced the Nazis to fight a two front war and divide their forces. But stopping a foe is one thing; driving him back hundreds and hundreds of miles is entirely different. It was the US that did the bulk of driving back the Nazis from the beaches to Berlin, and the Japanese from Tarawa, Guadcana, Iowa Jima, to Okinana.
So like... hm... what the USSR was doing?

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Herb : Yes, Britain was indispensable. Britain, essentially alone, stopped the Nazi advance. This forced the Nazis to fight a two front war and divide their forces. But stopping a foe is one thing; driving him back hundreds and hundreds of miles is entirely different. It was the US that did the bulk of driving back the Nazis from the beaches to Berlin, and the Japanese from Tarawa, Guadcana, Iowa Jima, to Okinana.
Map : So like... hm... what the USSR was doing?

Interesting question Map. Seems Hitler and Stalin teamed up to divide
Eastern Europe between themselves. Hitler took Western Poland and in turn Stalin was allowed to move in and take over Eastern Poland. Stalin got greedy and took Finland, Lithuiania, Latvia, and Estonia as well. As Hitler steamrolled through Europe slaughtering thousands, the Soviets voluntarily gave him the raw materials, such food and oil, for several years to help in his mayhem. When the tiny island nation of Britain stood alone in the world against the largest, best trained, best equiped, most savage enemy, the Soviets were shipping oil and food to the Nazis to help them. http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa072699.htm

Revealing his true nature even prior to signing his agreement with Hitler, Stalin murdered between 7-10 million of his own citizens (with his other exploits he even surpassed Hitler as the top mass murderer). After having won control over the Ukrainian grain fields, he then helped feed the Nazis. Later, the two homocidal maniacs, did come to blows, with the Soviets getting the better of it since Britain had held on forcing the Nazis into a two front war. http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

[Mapraputa Is]

Stalin got greedy and took Finland, Lithuiania, Latvia, and Estonia as well.
How did Stalin took Finland?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Maybe I misunderstood you Map, but regarding all those European public opinion polls you posted, what ever gave you the idea that Americans were even remotely concerned in European opinion polls? And for that matter, why on earth should we be?
[ October 26, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

Well, it might help to dispel the notion, widely held by people in other parts of the world, that Americans are arrogant and ignorant about other cultures' points of view. It also might help to assure them that, contrary to what they might think, we do not drop bombs on other countries without making an attempt to be "even remotely concerned." Who knows, showing a basic human concern for others might even help to prevent future terrorist attacks...

[Paul Stevens]

Originally posted by <allabout>:

Who knows, showing a basic human concern for others might even help to prevent future terrorist attacks...

Not likely.

[Mapraputa Is]

The Munich Agreement.

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
Stalin got greedy and took Finland, Lithuiania, Latvia, and Estonia as well.
How did Stalin took Finland?

Well, he took land and seaports from Finland as a result of the Soviet invasion. Technically, it was a different situation than the other countries he invaded in that a portion of Finland still remained as a seaparate entity.
http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Winter_War

[Joe King]

Neither the americans, the british or the russians single handidly won the war - it was a team effort. This is one of the few times in history when nations from different continents, with different ideals and different cultures united together to stop an evil that threatened them all. The thing is that we dont seem to have learnt the lesson that it was the fact that all these (and other) countries came together that won the war, not the actions of one individual country. Without the europeans, the germans would have had only one front to fight on. Without the americans, d-day would not have been possible. Without the russions making a second front, the germans would have squashed the british, taken russia and probably now still dominate the world.

[Richard Hawkes]

Originally posted by Joe King:
Neither the americans, the british or the russians single handidly won the war - it was a team effort.
Yeah, so "high-five" everyone!!

[HS Thomas]

I am just filled with russian emotion at the moment. I like the use of lower case characters all the way through Joe King's post.
More WWII heroes :
Tuskegee Airmen
Navajo Code Talkerswho encoded messages for the British using their unique language
Take particular note of these.
Following the Winston Churchill trail there seems to be just as much
anti-semitism there than you could possibly find in Germany and Europe and in the world. I could be justified in saying that the peoples who believed in what the Empire stood for perhaps saved Western civilisation.

high-five
[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]

[Mapraputa Is]

Originally posted by herb slocomb:
Well, he took land and seaports from Finland as a result of the Soviet invasion. Technically, it was a different situation than the other countries he invaded in that a portion of Finland still remained as a seaparate entity.

But we like kinda already talked about it?
https://coderanch.com/t/38997/md/Vasily-Zaitsev

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:

But we like kinda already talked about it?
https://coderanch.com/t/38997/md/Vasily-Zaitsev

Yes, I knew that, and its tiresome, but somehow I find the strength to defend the truth...
I don't believe Stalin annexed Estonia, Lituiania, and Lativa, and invaded Finland & Poland for purely defensive purposes ("buffer zone"). If it was only to defend himself from Hitler, then we would have expected Estonia, Latvia, Poland, and Lithuania to have been given back their autonomy after the War when Hitler was not a threat, correct???
Secondly, soon afterwards, Stalin also grabbed territory from Rumania as well and had wanted Bulgaria also. Was this also a "buffer zone"? Will you excuse Stalin of taking all of Europe as a "defensive" action ?
http://www.thirdreichpages.org/hitlerstroubles.htm

[frank davis]

Originally posted by Joe King:
Neither the americans, the british or the russians single handidly won the war - it was a team effort. This is one of the few times in history when nations from different continents, with different ideals and different cultures united together to stop an evil that threatened them all. The thing is that we dont seem to have learnt the lesson that it was the fact that all these (and other) countries came together that won the war, not the actions of one individual country. Without the europeans, the germans would have had only one front to fight on. Without the americans, d-day would not have been possible. Without the russions making a second front, the germans would have squashed the british, taken russia and probably now still dominate the world.

Go Team, Go!!
:roll:
Please, the War is over now for over almost 60 years, can we admit the truth now? There EVENTUALLY was some co-ordination of allied forces yes, but it was reluctant and forced. Let's not obscure the facts of what caused the "team" effort and the fact that some of the "team" players did not give a damm for the others except to save their own hide (Britain and US being an exception). So to offer balance to the offical team view, I offer these facts :
1. France and Britain (and rest of Team Europe) sit back and let Hitler have the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia.
2. Later, "Team Europe" does still nothing as Hitler forcefully takes more chunks of Czechoslovakia - Bohemia and Moravia.
3. Russian team signs a non-competition agreement with Nazis.
4. Russian team co-ordinates its attacks with Nazis on the Polish team.
5. Russian team goes on an unfriendly takeover spree of other East European teams : Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and parts of Rumania and Finland.
6. Russain team begins providing oil, food, and other strategic materials to the Nazi team WHILE the Nazi team is taking over France and the rest of Europe. Now that's team spirit!
7. For all practical purposes Britain stood alone against the Nazi war machine for nearly a year after Europe fell. "Team Europe" was down to one player (is that a team???). Russia was still co-operating with Nazis and giving the Nazis supplies/fuel as the German air force bombs English cities.
8. Saying Russia made "make a second front" as you claim, is misleading. It makes it sound as if Russia voluntarily decided to quit helping the Nazis and join the Allies. The fact is the Soviets would have sat out the whole war and watched the rest of the world get slaughtered. They only joined the Allies after the Nazis attacked them. They were forced into being Allies and we were forced to accept them as Allies as a matter of survival.
9. Stalin and Hitler were moral equivalents - both were power hungary, mass murdering, homocidal maniacs. The fact that Stalin temporarily ended up on our team in no way made him "better".

http://histclo.hispeed.com/essay/war/ww2/camp/eur/ea/eag-mun.html
[ October 31, 2003: Message edited by: herb slocomb ]

[HS Thomas]

6. Russain team begins providing oil, food, and other strategic materials to the Nazi team WHILE the Nazi team is taking over France and the rest of Europe. Now that's team spirit!

All your comments are true from what I have gleaned. (however superficially).
But why on earth would the Nazis attack Russia if they were giving them oil,food etc ? Was it a question of the Nazis not wanting to pay for it in the future ?
regards

[frank davis]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

All your comments are true from what I have gleaned. (however superficially).
But why on earth would the Nazis attack Russia if they were giving them oil,food etc ? Was it a question of the Nazis not wanting to pay for it in the future ?
regards

Seemed like Stalin was getting greedy for even more Balkan land, such as what was left of Rumania. Rumania appeared to be major source of oil for Hitler. Hitler also signed an agreement with the Finns after the Soviets had attacked them, ruffling Stalin's feathers.
http://www.thirdreichpages.org/hitlerstroubles.htm

[Mapraputa Is]

6. Russain team begins providing oil, food, and other strategic materials to the Nazi team
and Nazi team provides... WHAT? Mind you, it was two-sides agreement. If they forget to teach you this in your volunteerely history class, go back and ask your teachers.
NNN. ...
And only the US looks like an angel. Is it because US exhibits an angel nature or is it because US had her ass far away, when other countries had not?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
How did Stalin took Finland?

Map: I think you're right about our experiences being similar yet opposite:
From Chapter 4:
"But what was the Russian Soul? And where could I find it? And why were Russians so convinced that they were the most spiritual people in the world. . .that they were the smartest? Didn't they realize that Americans were the smartest? Granted, Russia had invented vodka; but it was America that had invented peanut butter! Sure, they had a rich tradition of poetry; but we had an even richer tradition of toilet paper. And for raw ingenuity, could the Moscow metro--even though it was the world's finest--really be compared with the feat of engineering that produced American democracy. . . ?
. . .But maybe I was wrong! Maybe Russians really were the smartest people on earth? After all, it had been proven statistically that all important inventions had been created either by Russians, or--in the few remaining cases--by Americans who had immigrated from Russia. And that despite what I had been told for years it wasn't America that had played the decisive role in all world wars; now I was learning that it was Russia who had suffered relentlessly, thereby forcing the enemy under its own weight to become soft and thin. In truth it was Russia, not America, that was responsible for western civilization. . ."
See, Map, I told you America was responsible for western civilization as we know it!