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And Spain goes left..

 
Sheriff
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Originally posted by Tim Baker:
Some people have obviously never worked for minimum wage.


And some people have. For all this sermonizing about the poor, I kind of doubt many here actually deal with them much.
While there's very little in the way of upward mobility in England (I suspect due to the social structures in place), there is upward mobility in the US. It's not guaranteed, but it's there. Here, everybody has the opportunity to make a decent life for themselves.
And what on earth does all this claptrap have to do with Spain's recent surrender to terrorism?
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
buckaroo
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There are no answers in life, only choices. Wherever we as individuals or nations find ourselves today is the direct result of a choice we made yesterday. It was my choice, I own it, I am held responsible for the consequences.

Spain made a very poor choice for the long run. They did what the Churchills of this world would "Never, never" do: "Give up!" Which led to my comments that were censored, about the socialistic viewpoint in general: "always wanting someone else to pay the frieght."
Freedom has a price and demands periodic payment; which begins with the individual, not a government!
This is, was and shall ever remain my point.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Donald R. Cossitt ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

And some people have. For all this sermonizing about the poor, I kind of doubt many here actually deal with them much.
While there's very little in the way of upward mobility in England (I suspect due to the social structures in place), there is upward mobility in the US. It's not guaranteed, but it's there. Here, everybody has the opportunity to make a decent life for themselves.
And what on earth does all this claptrap have to do with Spain's recent surrender to terrorism?
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


Well that's not true now is it.
I, being an english person, come from a working class family. I went to a normal school and got good but not excellent grades (ie I probably wouldn't of got a scholarship), I then chose to go to university, at no cost upfront to myself or at all to my parents. I then graduated top of my year. I am soon to be starting a graduate job that is better paid than anyone else in my family.
If I had lived in the great united states of america there is no way I could of afforded to go to university and I probably wouldn't of got a scholarship.
Clearly what you state is not true, not everyone has the opportunity to make a better life for themselves.
 
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interesting news about spanish vote:
The polls of the last week weren't publish to not influence the real vote.
They showed a clear tendency in favour of PSOE.
With that, no one can assign the spanish left swing to Bin Ladens fachist bomb boys.
Why should one of the democratic success stories of the last 30 years let their vote influence by those wretched clowns*.
Axel
*1st clowns, 2nd dangerous
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Tim Baker:
If I had lived in the great united states of america there is no way I could of afforded to go to university and I probably wouldn't of got a scholarship.
Clearly what you state is not true, not everyone has the opportunity to make a better life for themselves.


So the only way to go to school if you can't afford it is to get a scholarship? Bullshit. I came from a single parent working class household, so it's not like I had anything handed to me. I certainly couldn't afford school. But the options were there. I could have taken a student loan. I could have worked my way through college while trying to hold down a couple of menial jobs in order to get the bills paid. Or I could have joined the military, either active duty, reserves, or National Guard. I left home at 17 and chose to go full time active duty military and paid my own way through college while using the educational benefits that are provided by the military. I made my own decisions on how to put myself in the position I wanted to be in, without having to take handouts from the government or anyone else for that matter.
This girl I lived with for a time was in the exact same situation as me. She came from very little in the poor suburbs of Chicago, joined the military, used her educational benefits to get her degree, along with some student loadns, and is pretty successful now. She made her own success without needing handouts. It's a familiar pattern I've seen repeated time and time again here.
In this country at least, "the great United States" as you put it, the options are there without having to take a handout or having the government prop you up. Maybe in your country the only way for the financially challenged to make it is through massive government assistance, but that isn't the way it works here. To my way of thinking you appreciate what you have a little bit more, and it's worth a bit more, when you have to work for it.
 
Tim Baker
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

So the only way to go to school if you can't afford it is to get a scholarship? Bullshit. I came from a single parent working class household, so it's not like I had anything handed to me. I certainly couldn't afford school. But the options were there. I could have taken a student loan. I could have worked my way through college while trying to hold down a couple of menial jobs in order to get the bills paid. Or I could have joined the military, either active duty, reserves, or National Guard. I left home at 17 and chose to go full time active duty military and paid my own way through college while using the educational benefits that are provided by the military. I made my own decisions on how to put myself in the position I wanted to be in, without having to take handouts from the government or anyone else for that matter.
This girl I lived with for a time was in the exact same situation as me. She came from very little in the poor suburbs of Chicago, joined the military, used her educational benefits to get her degree, along with some student loadns, and is pretty successful now. She made her own success without needing handouts. It's a familiar pattern I've seen repeated time and time again here.
In this country at least, "the great United States" as you put it, the options are there without having to take a handout or having the government prop you up. Maybe in your country the only way for the financially challenged to make it is through massive government assistance, but that isn't the way it works here.


You know there are some people who don't want to join the Military. I'm sure this shocks and appals you. Damn Hippies etc etc
And no the government hasn't given me any handouts for my higher education. They've given me a loan, that will haunt and hinder me for the next 10 years of my life. So when all the middle class graduates are off taking out mortgages and starting families, people like me won't be able to.


To my way of thinking you appreciate what you have a little bit more, and it's worth a bit more, when you have to work for it.


Undoubtably. Doesn't mean you shouldn't give help to people who for whatever reason need it.
 
Jason Menard
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You know there are some people who don't want to join the Military. I'm sure this shocks and appals you. Damn Hippies etc etc
And knowing this, this is why I gave other alternatives that could be pursued, although I know there are some people who don't want to take out student loans or who don't want to have to work their way through college. Don't think you can jump right into a four year school? Then go to a community college or a trade school. If those are the only options, you either choose to do what is necessary or you don't. I don't have any sympathy for somebody who fails to seize the opportunities they are presented to better their situation and then whines about how tough it is to make it.
[ March 19, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Tim Baker
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They don't give student loans to just anyone you know. And you can't just enrole on the hope that you will find a job in whatever city the university happens to be in.
 
Donald R. Cossitt
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One thing that is being overlooked: formal education may be important but is in no wise critical to success. You would not have to review history far to see this to be true.
I know scores of people whose education far exceeds their intelligence.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Tim Baker:
They don't give student loans to just anyone you know. And you can't just enrole on the hope that you will find a job in whatever city the university happens to be in.


Yes, you can actually assume you will find a job close enough to where you live and go to school. There are tons of jobs available in the service industry,such as restaurants. Anybody who cannot find some job to help get them through school simply isn't looking hard enough or is refusing to take jobs that they feel are beneath them. Perhaps this is a fundamental difference. Some people believe that regardless of obstacles that through diligence and hard work they can achieve their realistic goals (such as attending school), while others would rather view the obstacles as insurmountable and rely on social programs instead of one's own drive. As I stated before, just about anyone who wants to attend school in the US (be it community college, four year university, or trade school), can find the means to do so if they are willing to do what is necessary. If you say that's not the case in England, I have no reason not to believe you, but a lack of opportunity over there has no relevance on opportunity here.
 
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