"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Gabriel
Software Surgeon
Absolutely not! That would be folly. As Gabriel wisely pointed out, Ajax helps us to give the user a richer experience, but all the lessons we learned about layering applications properly still apply. The way that we write responses may change (or more accurately, be augmented), but all the "rules" about how to construct proper web applications still applyOriginally posted by R K Singh:
Now with Ajax, I think we are going to do lot of server side things in JS.
I think you have not had an accurate first impression.I may be wrong but this is my first thoughts about Ajax.
"Thanks to Indian media who has over the period of time swiped out intellectual taste from mass Indian population." - Chetan Parekh
Originally posted by R K Singh:
Just read few paras of Ajax tutorial and I think we are back to square one when it comes to separate client and server programming.
I got chance to work on cgi-perl (did some modification in Bugzilla code base.), worked on servlets when JSP was at 0.7 version(if I recollect correctly), then came J2EE with MVC and brought clear separation in all layers(with use of lot of design patterns).
Now with Ajax, I think we are going to do lot of server side things in JS.
I may be wrong but this is my first thoughts about Ajax.
Yes, you can develop programming practices that result in well-structured code with almost any approach (but you have to be _especially_ disciplined using the traditional approaches when AJAX is added to the stack). The advantage of the approaches I mentioned is that you can use object orientation when coding the view and the controller, thereby facilitating abstraction, re-use, and the easy ability to refactor (which, among other things, gives you more options for separating concerns).Originally posted by Bear Bibeault:
Traditional web programming is a "mess of spaghetti" only if you write it that way. Regardless of the technologies used, programming can be well-structured or not.
Your comments are basically the reason so many developers prefer Wicket over the other, purer (i.e. single language) approaches I mentioned. Wicket allows users the full expressive power of HTML/CSS when designing their GUIs. (You can even insert your own Javascript, though I'm told the pre-written AJAXified components usually make this unnecessary.)Yeah, it's a bit more work to learn how to use the web technologies together in concert, but the results are generally better than the one-language solutions. At least at this stage.
... Applets failed for a number of reasons that Sun hasn't yet seem to have overcome. Swing UIs are generally pretty horrible. ...
Tools like GWT have their place, but the UIs that they generate are usually less than pleasing. And there's major limitations placed on the UI by what the tool supports.
The translation layer may be a big cause of problems in Echo and GWT -- I don't know; I don't have much experience with them. For Wicket, translation is no more an issue than in JSF or ASP.NET. (Maybe there's a bit less of a translation issue because you are writing Java rather than having a tool generate it.)Not too mention the problems caused by the translation layer. Developers are simply trading one set of problems for another.
What is your experience with Wicket? Until recently it was inconvenient to learn due to the lack of professional-quality documentation. But a good Manning book on it just came out.
You pick the tool that works best for you and the product that you are trying to create. I've tried them all, and for me, the traditional stack of web technologies works best.
Originally posted by R K Singh:
Just read few paras of Ajax tutorial and I think we are back to square one when it comes to separate client and server programming.
I don't have time at the moment to start a new topic, but here are a few nice links to intros and already existing discussions:Originally posted by Bear Bibeault:
Actually, Wicket is the only technology mentioned that I haven't explored in depth. It sounds interesting, but it's a bit off-topic for this post and forum. Perhaps you could start a topic in the App Frameworks forum to discuss this?
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