RUP vs. Agile process

[Doug Wang]

Hi, all
Is RUP anti-Agile?
How do you rate Craig Larman's and Robert Martin's work that seem to try to tailor RUP to be agile?
And how do you rate Scott W. Ambler's AgileModeling? Is it one of Agile process?

[John Dale]

You might want to check the Rational web site to see what papers you find explaining RUP as an agile process.
I think they've done some work on that.

[Doug Wang]

Originally posted by John Dale:
You might want to check the Rational web site to see what papers you find explaining RUP as an agile process.
I think they've done some work on that.

Hi John,
Thank you for your response. I do find two articles at Rational.com talking about small projects:
Using Rational Unified Process for Small Projects: Expanding Upon eXtreme Programming and The Ten Essentials of RUP: The Essence of an Effective Development Process.
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Doug Wang ]

[shailesh sonavadekar]

doug , agile methodology is not a single methodology. it consists of variety of methodologies. it consists of SCRUM , XP , CRYSTAL FAMILY , DSDM , FDD , Highsmith's adaptive software development.
Mr. Fowler mentions in one of his article's that what Larman & Martin are doing , are agile instance of RUP only. He also mentions that as per his contacts in the industry , Philip Krutchen & his team are followers of iterative development.
i think in that light , RUP is not at all anti - agile. you decide how you have to use it , heavywight or lightweight ( agile ) .
this is the signatories of manifesto.
we have to see scot ambler's agile modelling.
i hope this helps.
shailesh.

[shailesh sonavadekar]

doug ,one more thing. it is also mentioned by Mr. Fowler that jim higsmith & ASlistair are combining their methodologies. so , we must hear it from horse's mouth ( that is ) Alistair.

[Alistair Cockburn]

Rumour reaches me that what Philippe Kruchten calls "RUP" was once what he and his gang used on the Canadian air traffic control system.
If this is true, then that truly was an "agile" 250 person life critical system. I wish they'd say so, though, instead of pretending it's something for everyone. (I'd love to have their project as an example of a Crystal Blue, for instance).
"Agile" is a state-of-mind, an approach, a worldview, as Jim Highsmith has it. One doesn't ask, "could an agile methodology work with this situation?", one asks, "How could we be agile in this situation?"
Jim and I agree on so many things, we are trying to work together. Since we both believe every project needs it's own methodology, it's not really conceivable we'll "merge" our methodologies. Rather, we'll be saying the same thing using our two slightly different vocabularies.
Alistair

[Alan Shalloway]

Although RUP could conceivably be done in an agile manner, one of the main proponents that the rational folks use with rup is that you are building models first, then developing code. This tends to be much more heavyweight than an agile process would be. The idea behind rup is often that if we go through our checklists and do what we are told, somehow the result with be one we like. That's because classical RUP is model and tool driven. There are many good things about rup, but the mindset should be agile to make it work.
Alan Shalloway

[shailesh sonavadekar]

that means alistair , your methodlogy & Jim's methodlogies will be two diff. methologies , with different vocabularies , isn't it ?

[Doug Wang]

Originally posted by Alistair:
Jim and I agree on so many things, we are trying to work together...we'll be saying the same thing using our two slightly different vocabularies.

Alistair,
Which ideas do you learn from each other?

[Alistair Cockburn]

<<that means alistair , your methodlogy & Jim's methodlogies will be two diff. methologies , with different vocabularies , isn't it ?>>
Well, since Jim and I agree on "a methodology per project", it gets hard to say "Alistair's Methodology*" and "Jim's Methodology*". However, we are learning to use each others' languages.
Jim came to take his vocabulary from the sciences around complexity and emergence; I took mine from cooperative game and cognitive psychology. When we speak or write, we naturally use the language and metaphors from those two areas, even when we're trying to say the same thing.
Possibly the good thing is that people who don't grok complexity will get gaming, and vice versa.

[Alistair Cockburn]

Originally posted by Doug Wang:

Alistair,
Which ideas do you learn from each other?

What I like about Jim is that he's reaching for the next understanding, as I also am. So we get to trade notes on what we're reaching for, and build / critique quickly. Like what I said about the writing of Frasier or collaborative design.
So, for instance, he said, "Process, formality and documentation are distinct from Skills, discipline and understanding" and drew them on opposite axes and marked "typical light methodology" and "typicla heavy methodology". I replied, "And the two oppose each other, so there should be a 1/x shaped curve that shows the probably space they sit in." Result was Fig 4-19 in my Agile book.
I said, "people are more significant than process", and he added, "but politics are more significant than people".
I drew the methodology 12-tuple, said, "methodology per project" and mumbled the word "ecosystem" in there somewhere, and he build a parallel 12-tuple and said, "We need to match the ecosystem to the methodology (and vice versa)."
He's teaching me about "emergence", etc etc