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To Authors - What type of projects !

 
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Hi,

Being involved in developing software for automation, controls and process solutions for various industries, I feel that the most of the agile processes involved do not apply really to this industry where the requirements are quite fixed and rarely change? (most of the projects take 1-2 years to complete)

Does the book talk about different processes based on the type of projects(systems) being developed ? Will the tips apply to these type of projects also ? are there any specifc tips for these LONGGGGGGGGGG projects

Thanks
Hari

[ August 04, 2005: Message edited by: Hari Vignesh Padmanaban ]
[ August 04, 2005: Message edited by: Hari Vignesh Padmanaban ]
 
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In mind Agile is not just about Agile requirements. It's about teamwork and communication that coincidentally really help out on rapidly changing requirements.

Check out the Agile Manifesto

The point is to find ways to create better software. Using a Continous Integration system is valuable to any team, not matter the length of the project.

Having a solidly scripted build is also valuable.

If you are thinking about a more pure definition of process, then using Tracer Bullet Development might be what you consider a process. TBD is a great way to encapsulate portions of a large project. This can help you with test automation, parallel work efforts between teams, refactoring efforts, etc

So while we don't talk much about large projects specifically, the ideas will still apply.

Take the time to put these ideas (and others) in your tool box and then you can pull them as needed. Don't decide that you'll never need the tool before you've learned about it.
 
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
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Thanks for the reply and for the links jared

Originally posted by Jared Richardson:
Don't decide that you'll never need the tool before you've learned about it.



of course not

I am sure that having a GOOD and CLEAR understanding about the processes will help me in choosing the most appropriate process for a project.
 
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Originally posted by Hari Vignesh Padmanaban:
I feel that the most of the agile processes involved do not apply really to this industry where the requirements are quite fixed and rarely change? (most of the projects take 1-2 years to complete)



Agility is not only about changing requirements. It is also, for example, about risk management. With Agile Software Development, you get very early and frequent feedback on how you are doing - every one to two weeks, you get a new, always more accurate extrapolation on when you will be finished. And that forecast will be based on working tested software, not on some design documents.
 
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Hari, ask those in the automation and control industry. If you address authors you might get a Veebee programmer who published a book, has some development experience but is otherwise oblivious to excellence in software and how one achieves that.
 
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
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Originally posted by Rick O'Shay:
Hari, ask those in the automation and control industry. .




The intention was not to gain anything about a process folowwed in teh automation and control library. It was about teh processes being followed for large projects !

And there is no sinmgle (or even few) process followed in teh control insdutry for such processes



If you address authors you might get a Veebee programmer who published a book, has some development experience but is otherwise oblivious to excellence in software and how one achieves that



Strange that u should mention that.. I am sure that u have not read teh authors profile !! please dont jump to assumptions that everyone in teh world is a VB programmer My question wasa addressed to the authors below with experience in leading LARGE Projects ..it had nothing to do with any "PROGRAMMING" skillset they had ..!!


Jared Richardson is a developer-turned-manager who thinks a good day is having everything delegated so that he can sneak away and actually write code. He specializes in using off-the-shelf technologies to solve tough problems, especially those involving the software development process. With more than 10 years of experience, Jared has been a consultant, developer, tester, and manager, including Director of Development at several companies. He currently manages a team of developers and testers at SAS Inc., and is responsible for a company-wide effort to increase the use of test automation to improve the quality of SAS products.

Will Gwaltney is a software developer with over 20 years experience. In that time he hasn't quite seen it all, but he's seen most of it (and a lot of it hasn't been pretty). He's worked at both large companies and start-ups in the fields of electronics CAD, networking, telecommunications, knowledge representation, and web-based planning and scheduling for the enterprise. Will currently works on test automation at SAS Inc., the largest privately-owned software company in the world




And also, tehre are lot of people in the automation industry who use VB.NET and C#. Aany of the successful projects headed by technical mangers or project heads have been Ppogrammers (even VB) at one point of thier time who eventually turned into managers. And as a developer right now, I feel that experiences that I have gained through in the projects will eventually help in answering questions like this posted in the forum in the future !!

And referring to your previous post here, I feel brain dumps are the most hard to get.

Especially for kids who have just started fencing with sticks (new developers..mabe with bad technical or project mangers) I am sure that "SHIP IT" does help those kids in become better equiped to become gladiators(as u would like to call it ), by giving them a good idea on the problems being faced and twe ways to face it !! at atleast a knowledge on the plethora of processes being followed in teh industry right now !!


As a relativley new developer, I feel that "Ship It" WILL definetely help you get a better idea on the problems faced by the software industry today!


HTH

hari
[ August 06, 2005: Message edited by: Hari Vignesh Padmanaban ]
 
Rick O'Shay
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I'd agree that a new developer entirely unfamiliar with software engineering principles and basic software practices (use version control, use unit tests) would benefit from the book, assuming no access to other books on the subject.

BTW, the veebee reference wasn't specific an author, programmer with a word processor or otherwise. I was only making the point that you are better off just posing the question. Also, I have nothing against veebee per se, it's a great tool for Windows desktop applications that glue together Windows services. I actually like it.
 
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
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Originally posted by Rick O'Shay:
I'd agree that a new developer entirely unfamiliar with software engineering principles and basic software practices (use version control, use unit tests) would benefit from the book, assuming no access to other books on the subject.



Unfortunately, tehre are not may otehr books on teh market right now that give you that entire knowledge in one single source

One useful book for development as such, with regard to .NET that I found quite useful was
CODER TO DEVELOPER

This is tied strongly with .NET [unlike the title sugessing a general coverage]. Again this speaks nothing about the processes being involved in developing teh softare ..its tool centric..


Any useful list that u have rick on other books relating to basic software principles ((use version control, use unit tests) for the novice developer?

HTH
 
Rick O'Shay
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Well, you will not get the "entire" knowledge or much of any knowledge from this book. As mentioned, you might find it useful if you don't know anything about unit testing or code reviews or version control. Case in point, there's a lot of discussion version control systems which are essential tools. Having worked for dozens of companies consulting and as an employee, I've never seen one that doesn't use PVCS or RCS or SCCS or Perforce or CVS
 
Rick O'Shay
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... or Subversion or TLib or ClearCase or a hundred others. Ditto for automating builds with Ant or batch files or shell scripts or any of a dozen different Make derivatives. Version Control and build scripts should get one line in a process book.

Alternatively, if you are going to talk about at least cover the fundamentals. They do not. They don't even mention branching. I wonder if they actually use branching or now how to apply it?

Sorry, Ship It! is a dud from start to end.
 
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Originally posted by Rick O'Shay:

Sorry, Ship It! is a dud from start to end.



So let's say you meet a developer working in one of the majority of shops that actually don't use most of these basic practices. One of those lovely shops that has a change control board and code reviews and coding standards and comment-writing requirements and checklists and code ownership, but that doesn't use continuous integration, or automated testing, or version control software. They don't do automated builds. Releases slip due to feature creep. The majority of software written today is written in an environment like that.

You have five minutes. You could hand him a copy of this book -- or you could do something else. What do you do?
 
Rick O'Shay
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First I would ignore the time constaint and if not possible write them off. Assuming they had a reasonable amount of time for consultation I would give them set of Agile & Iterative Development for Manager's and suggestion three more process books of their choosing. I would ask that they adopt policies in the aforementioned book and review all of the supporting links included in the book.

What they will not get out of that is what build tool to use or what SCM to use. I would interview the team and suggest a tool (e.g., Ant or Make) plus some version control tool (CVS or Perforce or anything with concurrent edits) and suggest they learn how to manage versions and, more importantly, branches.

I would wish them luck but ask them not to get their hopes up. Anybody that far out of touch with modern-day practices (read: post 1985) probably has far greater issues.
 
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Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words Hari. There are three important things to bear in mind.

1) Not everyone will like every book. This is a given. It's OK that Rick doesn't like Ship It.

2) There are a few people who do like the book. Some are better known than Rick. http://www.jaredrichardson.net/quotes.html

3) There will always be people who derive their sense of self worth from how many arguments they can start. This is not unique to the internet. You can deprive them of that feeling of power by simply ignoring them.
[ August 06, 2005: Message edited by: Jared Richardson ]
 
Ernest Friedman-Hill
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You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.
 
Hari Vignesh Padmanaban
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Originally posted by Jared Richardson:
Hi all,

Thanks for the kind words Hari. There are three important things to bear in mind.

1) Not everyone will like every book. This is a given. It's OK that Rick doesn't like Ship It.

2) There are a few people who do like the book. Some are better known than Rick. http://www.jaredrichardson.net/quotes.html

3) There will always be people who derive their sense of self worth from how many arguments they can start. This is not unique to the internet. You can deprive them of that feeling of power by simply ignoring them.

[ August 06, 2005: Message edited by: Jared Richardson ]



well said jared

and its a coincidence that the first quote on the blog is by "Mike Gunderloy " author of "Coder to developer" taht i had mentioned earlier

form the quotes in the website, i can clearly see that that "Wise men think alike"
 
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