Lack of Basic Java Knowledge after having several Java Certifications

[Sam Kishen]

Hi All Fellow ranchers,

I am working with Java Technologies from past 6 years and also a silent member of this forum from past few years.From day one i had this fixation with SCJP but didnt really got motivated to write it .(I have already paid for certification voucher but yet to take it).

As part of our team expansion, we interviewed several java people , most of them had atleast two certifications(SCJP,SCWCD and SCBCD). We have asked them simple questions and they were not able to answer them(Not even practical ones, but directly from scjp book)

My point is that , writing certication is not tough but maintaining that knowledge is important and having just Certication in their resumes are of no Help.

Now in my case i have decided to prepare and after passing , remember the basics so that i can prove at any time that my "Certificaton" is not a WASTE.


Sorry if my post has hurt anyone.


SAM

[Deepa Korecherla]

My opinion--
After taking certifications we really know what is what...and how to use it (where to find..etc) though by the interview time ppl by nervousness forget some things but if given a chance they can easily solve if he has once studied that subject.
It is not about forgetting it...it is about memorizing every little thing is a bit difficult.
But, forgetting the concepts is never good...agreeing with u in this a little.

[Sam Kishen]

Hi Deepa,

i am not talking about memorizing each and every topic. We concentrated on the their way of thinking and approach.When you dont know something , thats different but if you just read some concepts without understanding , this kind of situation arises.


FYI: all of them had a min 6 years of experience with Java/Web Technologies along with Certifications.


Anyways thanks for your opinion.


SAM

[Sam Kishen]

Comment from moderator: this is a response to a trashed post.

Thanks Chowdary..I think you didnt read my post clearly and dont know how you can pass Judgement again. You may understand it if you read my Post again.

Never i have criticized SCJP certification.All i have said is that, you need to maintain a certain Standard of Knowledge once you pass Certification.
Also i clearly mentioned that "
Getting Certified may be tough but mainitaining that Standard of Knowledge is important."

Please dont use personal attacks .I never said that i have paid the fees 6 years ago. I just paid it last month.

Hope you will understand everything clear in the first attempt from next time and please dont WASTE others time by deviating the meaning of this POST.

I would be happy if you keep a distance with this POST.


BTW..Looks like you really dont know , how hectic project schedules will be . None of my collegues and seniors are Certified just because of LACK of TIME to prepare.

***********************************************************************


Trashed trash post quote.
[ July 10, 2005: Message edited by: Barry Gaunt ]

[B. Harris]

Anyone smart enough to write java exams, has a broad enough knowledge to do certain java work, maybe not all work.

Do they have a deep knowledge or experience to do what you need?

Certified must remain sharp. There's no excuse for that in an interview.

I personally have not written the test. Preparing suggests sacrifice, determination and familiarity of the language. It has been humbling for me.

Why don't more "seasoned pros" get certified after many years? This would add credibility to their assessment of all applicants.

[Ashish Sarin]

Hi,

Just my 2 cents:
I agree to some of the reasons why taking certification is not required but not all. I have nearly 6 years of experience and I have been taking certifications all these years. This includes taking the recent Sun Certified Java Associate Beta exam. I have personally seen that the 'not certified' individuals downplay the value of certification and to me this has been a surprise. There is huge amount of effort, time, energy goes in preparing and taking the certification exams. So should we conclude that fools take certifications? No. The surveys that are conducted by some companies also suggest that taking certifications help candidates get better salaries and opportunities. There have been many success stories from individuals. So the ones who down play the value of certification are not justified otherwise survey results would have been different. I also agree to the fact that taking certifications doesnt *guarantee* good salary or a good opportunity. The certifications are not meant to get *expertise* in a technology area, they are meant to *know* or *learn* the technology fundamentals. If you expect a certified individual to answer certain practical questions then its also not justified because the certifications dont involve building mission critical applications with certain specific set of requirements. Its just a matter of time when people forget concepts they learnt during taking certification exams and so the chances are that an SCJP certified individual will not remember all concepts of SCJP after a time frame. It also happens that all the concepts learnt during certification are not used in the real projects that people work on, this again results in forgetting some of the concepts over time.

Looking at the very first message, all I can say is that there exist a basic mindset issues in people who take interviews. The focus shouldn't be what a candidate doesnt know, the focus should be what they know and that should be the *only* basis for recruiting an individual.

-Ashish Sarin

[Barry Gaunt]

Of concern to me, as a moderator of the SCJP forum, is the number of people who are taking the certification without adequate knowledge of the Java language. It seems like the only Java they know is that covered in "K&B", nothing else. It is clear that many do not even satisfy the intended requirements of SCJP and are misusing the certification purpose. This is the main reason I doubt the value of the SCJP certification.

[sameer inamdar]

I have gone through the reading and every one is trying to make a same conclusions. I am also an experience programmer working for various web technologies and worked in java for reasonable period. And would give certification soon. based on the fact this is made compulsary by our management and would be great value for me.

Please consider the following facts.

1. Technology is slave and bussiness is master.
2. As a programmer our job is to satisfy the bussiness process.
3. Technical vendors like sun , microsoft do need programmers and make there best way to sell their technology. certification is a way of promoting the use of technology.

4. And certification by vedor is the good bench mark to measure the skills of programmer.. but it can be different debate if the certification achieves that goal or not.

Certifications do try to achieve that but you cannot help if the candidate memorises and does it to just put on the resume.



Remember the basic.. Certification is not the objective. but certification achieved on the way to learn and know the technology better would help.

ITs not fair to come to conclusions based on single evidence or fact. But even i found that atleast now a days we find many freshers just passing the exams very easily.(though the vendors clearly mention experience is desirable and would help).
Though i share the same attitude what was reflected in first mail.

[Sam Kishen]

Thanks Sameer,Barry ,Ashish,Harris for your responses.

Ashish, I never meant that Certifications are of no value. All i am saying is that "You have to maintain the Standard of Knowledge" . I have a very high regard for this exam and in our case we never really asked "DIRECT BOOK QUESTION " as such. All we see is the Apporach of the candidate in solving any problem. It was not a yes/no question.

As you must of seen in your projects, we face several unknown or old problems, in which situation, the way of apporach is imp.

In our case all the Programmers had a min of 6 years and as an advantage ,had Certifications.

I am going to take the exam soon in a month time. I have brought K&B after going through all the posts and also i am encouraging my collegues also to take the Exam.

My goal is to become an Sun Certified Architect ,which i can acheieve practically after my current role of Tech lead.
Thanks Guys.

SAM

[William var]

Hi sam...
quote >> We have asked them simple questions and they were not able to answer them
quote >> in our case we never really asked "DIRECT BOOK QUESTION " as such. All we see is the Apporach of the candidate in solving any problem. It was not a yes/no question.

Hi sam !!!Thanks for all the info .I would like to know the questions that you acutually asked...specifically and also what were you actually looking for in their approach....This information would be very useful for all those boarders here reading ur topic...

good luck for becoming a Sun Certified Architect .....!!!

[Deepa Korecherla]

Originally posted by William var:
Hi sam !!!Thanks for all the info .I would like to know the questions that you acutually asked...specifically and also what were you actually looking for in their approach....This information would be very useful for all those boarders here reading ur topic...

good luck for becoming a Sun Certified Architect .....!!!

Hey Sam!! We r looking fwd for ur post with some Q's.

[Stefan Guilhen]

Hi all,

I agree with Barry when he says that there is a crescent number of people who are taking the certification without the appropriate knowledge. I've been around in the SCJP forum for about 1.5 years now and I must say I saw a lot of posts made by people who really need a lot more experience with the language before aiming at the certification. Some people are not even able to write a simple program to test their doubts. They rather post their doubts and if you reply sending a link to an external reading that could help they say "oh no, plz, be straight... that document is too confusing for me".

However, phrases like "This is the main reason I doubt the value of the SCJP certification" really saddens me. I have 5+ years of experience with the Java language, developed several projects and I am constantly learning and enhancing my knowledge. For me, the SCJP certification was a recognition given by Sun regarding my knowledge and experience with the language. That should count as a plus in my resume, not as a point of doubt.

Are there people who pass the exam and don't have the adequate knowledge? Yes, there are. Unfortunately there is no flawless test and you can't prevent this from happening. Maybe the tests could be harder (I personally think that some of them are easy) but still this will happen.

Maybe this is the problem Sam is having. Fortunately you don't hire someone just based on his/her resume. You have the interviews where you can better analyse people and select the ones whose profile matches your need. Sam, I really understand your point and I appreciate how you are encouraging your colleagues to study for the certification as well. After all, the value of what the knowledge you gain in the process is priceless. At least for those who really want to lean something and do not treat certifications just as a way to add value to their resumes.

Cheers,
Stefan

[Sam Kishen]

Guys,

Thanks for all your views. I have seen a fresh post in last few days from someone requesting for help without programming experience and any real time experience.

I am not against it but it looks like most of the Fresh graduates are taking certifications as one more simple paper than any professional certification as they have more time ,drive and patience to read and practise.

--I can send the questions that we usually ask for our project , if you can give you email address directly as i dont want this results forum to discuss Interview questions.

Thanks
SAM

[shiva viswanathan]

Hi Sam ,


Please send the questions to [email protected]
Looking at these questions , I guess i can get an idea as to
whether you were serious that the questions were direct
and anyone who has passed the certifiaction with hard work
(not just by learning some questions) can answer then

Thanks
Shiva

Thanks
Shiva

[Darya Akbari]

Sam,

I recommend that you go for SCJD after you received your SCJP.

Regards,
Darya

[Anil Kumar Saha]

Hi Sam,
Thanks for sharing your views with us. See, alone SCJP or any other certification can not make any person java guru kind of thing. Besides, we need hands on experience on live projects.
But you can not deny the fact that having a certificate paper in your pocket makes you confident and also give you a cutting edge over other candidates.Bottom line of doing a certification is to get a better job with good package.
Anyway,i'll be very happy if you can send me your questions to may Yahoo-ID [email protected]so that i'll be able to judge that am I worth for SCJP certificate or not.

[Anitha Lingam]

Hi,
I'm planning to take the exam in the near future. I've been watching this topic and got interested to know what are the expectations of the interviewers. Please send me ur questions to [email protected]
[ July 14, 2005: Message edited by: anitha lingam ]

[Sakthi Kani]

Hi Sam,
Please send your interview questions to me.
My email id: [email protected]
So that i can judge myself and also I'll get an idea, how the interviewer expectations will be...
Thanks in advance.

[Sivakumar Jambunathan]

Hello Sam,
Would you please send me the kinds of questions that the interviewee was asked. My id is [email protected].

Thanks a lot
Siva

[Mohamed Shafi]

Hello Sam,

Could you please send me the kinds of questions that u usually ask during the java interview.It would be great help for aspiring programers like me. My id is [email protected].

Thanks in advance,

Shafi.

[trivikram Kumar]

Hi Sam,

Could you please send the interview questions to my ID: [email protected]
I can then think if I could apply the knowledge of my certification in SCJP.

[narendra darlanka]

hi sam,

could please send me the questions .i want to know what is actually
expected from an scjp.
thanks in advance

[Deepa Korecherla]

I am late to ask....
Sam, also pls send me the questions to [email protected] ...it would be very helpful.
Thank u. waiting for ur mail....

[Bert Bates]

My two cents

I'm a fan of certification (duh!), but at the same time I don't see it as a 'cure-all'. I think the exams are getting better and better over time, and I think that anyone who passes has at least studied and understands a broad range of Java topics. There's no way that a corporation (Sun or anyone else), can, for a price tag of $150, put together a certification for a technology as complex as Java, and have that cetification guarantee that the people who pass are experts.

I will say that when I was studying for my SCJP, I learned more about Java than I had learned about any of the other programming languages I'd used professionally for over 20 years! In my experience, on the job, you never get time to learn all the ins-and-outs of a language... you learn just enough to get today's job done, then tomorrow you have to write a program to solve the next crisis. So, one nice thing about certification is that it gives you a great reason to learn some of the nooks and crannies of a technology that you'd never learn otherwise...

[Brijesh Dinkar]

Hi-

I have always asked this question to myself and to my mates - How much of what we know is really been useful when we work, and how confident are we that what we are doing is the best way to do. As a programmer prior to studyin and givin the exam , I was skeptical about the methodolgy that I followed to make a business logic work. And I use to wait for a code review to happen to get some inputs. Trust me , After giving the exam (SCJP and SCBCD) I really think I am a different person. When I sit in front of the monitor to code, I have the confidence, theres the thought process behind every line that I code ( I am thinkin about the heap size, I am thinkin about the performance, and most importantly the thread saftey of a piece of code).. The certifications seriously changed my attitude.. I am so much more involved when I code.. I infact look forward to code and programming challenges...There is less googling .. meaning less time spent.. I think there is lot more to certification that it just being part of a resume for a job hunt. There could be exceptions, where programmers do not get exposed or lack the intention to apply what that they had gained by virtue of their preperation & certifications and subsequently failing to do what they can do... To me Certifications is not the the end of all.., It is just a begining , a GREAT begining..

Brijesh

[William var]

Hi Sam,
Thanks a lot for all your inputs ...I would really like to improve and to check out how
my knowledge levels stand and would be grateful if you could send the questions you asked and the kind of thought process/approach you expected from a candidate

Please send your interview questions to me at my email id: <deleted>

Thanks in advance.

George

Originally posted by Sam Kishen:
Guys,

--I can send the questions that we usually ask for our project , if you can give you email address directly as i dont want this results forum to discuss Interview questions.

Thanks
SAM

[David Y. Lee]

Sam, pls send me the questions to [email protected].

I passed the SCJP 5.0 with 86% last month, I really want to know whether I can answer your questions.

Thanks.
[ July 23, 2005: Message edited by: David Y. Lee ]

[Abbey Adisa]

Hi,
Pls can you send the interview questions to [email protected]

Thanks

[Shrawan Bhageria]

Hi Sam,
Please send your interview questions to me.
My email id: [email protected]
Thanks in advance.

--------------------

[Vishnu Prakash]

Hi sam recently I completed SCJP certification with good score. It would be the right time to answer few of your questions I think. Can u kindly send the questions to [email protected].

[Deepa Korecherla]

Hey Sam ,
Are u reading all our posts. Pls respond.
I did not get any mail from you...I was expecting the questions..

Did anyone get them from Sam. Pls email me also @ [email protected].

Thanks.

[Vijay Jagannathan]

Sam,

Can you please forward the questions to [email protected]
I have completed the SCJP 1.4 and working on SCWCD and am curious about what you asked.

Regards
Vijay