motivation for this exam.....

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

Somehow I find it hard to get fired up to take this exam. It was a totally different thing with SCJP or SCWCD. But for what ever reason this certification seems to be a real drag for me.....
Anyone else feel like this ?
- madhav.........still trying!

[Terry Wang]

me 2. my feeling is xml is a big hot topic, but the cert itself hasn't got much attention/name recognization(somebody corrects me, pls). almost everybody uses a little bit xml every day, but having such a cert is not that attractive. in general, i don't think ibm's cert program is as good as sun's, m$'s, or oracle's. i have a long and ambitious list of certs to accomplish in this year(may never happen though):
1) ocp 9i (50% done)
2) scea (my voucher is expiring, lazy me)
3) mcad .net (actually the most important one for me)
4) xml (only i finish the other 3 first, which is quite unlikely)
.

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

but the cert itself hasn't got much attention/name recognization(somebody corrects me, pls).
Personally, I am not looking much for the recognition for taking the exam. I am doing it for myself. I hate to say but there aren't too many people who care for certifications anyways, atleast in this economy.
Its more for a personal learning experience and ultimately that's what matters, to me anyways.

- madhav

[John Wetherbie]

Madhav,
I'm also doing this for the learning experience. I find that studying for the certs exposes me to things I didn't know before which to me is at least as valuable as the certification itself, if not more. Unfortunately, I haven't been pushing myself on this one and other things are taking a lot of my time.
The best thing to do may be to buckle down and get it over with!
Good luck!

[Roseanne Zhang]

My motivation is focusing on one very broad area (XML related) to learn. Even I need to learn so many new things to do my job, but I could not focus on either one of them. Preparing this certification gives me a focus.
This is such an amazingly broad area, even some genious person only need 2 weeks to pass the test and didn't need to participate any of our discussion here.
I never participated so long and so much in a single JavaRanch forum comparing to these two XML related forums. I'm also active on jguru xml forum and some others. I also read wrox/mulberrytech/w3 forums. And I still feel not enough...
The certification is valuable, but the preparing/learning process is priceless!

[Rajan Thiyagarajan]

XML, I think, will relate/bind each and every type of software technology. Guess, will be the technology of tomorrow !.
Learning XML is simple. You read once, you will understand the concept. Not like learning C++ or Java, even a person without much knowledge about any programming language also can easily learn XML.
Me as a person without any knowledge of XML(2 months before) achieved IBM Certification in just more than a month preparation(may be 40 days). Started learning XML by reading "Sams 24 hours to learn XML", "w3schools.com", "Skonnard Quick Reference" and finally tried a bit of practicals using "XML Spy"/"Windows Notepad". Needless to tell the usefulness of JavaRanch XML Certification Discussion Forum.
I would be proud to tell myself as a Confident XML Developer rather than Certified XML Developer, not forget - I got Confidence because of IBM Certification.
All the best ! to whomever aspiring for IBM XML Certification.
-Rajan -

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Roseanne Zhang:
The certification is valuable, but the preparing/learning process is priceless!

Couldn't agree more!!! I guess it applies to all certifications. Very well said Roseanne.
As for me, I don't use XML much at work, so cert gives some motivation to study, it works like some sort of a goal for me; esp since my Brainbench voucher is expiring mid-March. If I do well in Brainbench, I'll consider IBM cert.
- Manish

[John Dunn]

(Speaking for my own fears):
I usually procrastinate for a test, until I accept that it is fine to take the test and fail - with the understanding that I'll continue to take it until I pass. Once I let myself off the hook and commit myself to the exam, I focus all my energy on studying. The very moment I get a decent chunk of studying done I pick a date and pay for the test. Then I HAVE to do it. The fear of having to take the test over again always makes me figure out a way to pass the first time.
It works for me...
-------------------
Roseanne,
I'm not even close to genius, (you can ask my wife!!), but I am a lucky S.O.B. who truly appreciates learning and challenging himself again. You see, I've literally gotten a complete second chance to live my life. I was doped up on anti-epileptic cocktails for 15 years - (a gradual progression) - until I got tired of it and chose to have experimental brain surgery at the age of 26 to try to cure epilepsy. It very nearly killed me, but I cheated death and it ended up working 100%!!! Then I spent 5 more years weaning off medicine until I finally had access to my full academic faculties for the first time in my adult life.
So at about 31 years of age I had to completely restart my computer career from scratch. Had I not pushed myself against my own limits, I would never know my abilities and could never achieved my success. I ABSOLUTELY HAD to set higher and higher limits and discovered that succeeding is sometimes more about fighting fears of failing than actually possessing some special ability. I also found that it can be enjoyable to learn.
Go ahead, test my theory -- don't be scared.
Now, is this bragging??? I consider it sharing and a blatant attempt to inspire. And God****IT I've earned the right to share!!!

So once again I say, I'm very confident most of you will pass this test by following my lead. Keep in mind, I'm on downtime so it will take a bit longer for working folks to read the book. I had no previous XML experience other than a few configs, here and there, so I'm sure some of you will be able to skip some chapters.
I'm confident that there is someone who is certain that if I can do it, they definitely can too. Hell man, I don't even have a full set of brains!!!

Now Roseanne, I still don't know or understand what you've been advocating by your intense opposition to my claims, but please run it by me again.
Suppose I'm being honest with my replies - which some folks find so hard to believe. What impact does your negativity have to the spirit of learning on this forum?? And what is the motivations and desires behind the fierce opposition?? I just don't know what you are trying to accomplish.

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

Learning XML is simple. You read once, you will understand the concept. Not like learning C++ or Java, even a person without much knowledge about any programming language also can easily learn XML.
As easy as it is to understand, I must say it is much easier to forget. IMO, XML is a much more volatile subject than C++ or Java.
Oh! wait, maybe I can also blame somebody for this...like Manish ?
As for me, I don't use XML much at work,
Me too. Atleast not to the extent that it motivates me...but anyways!
For what its worth...my point it that this is a much much more volatile subject.
regds.
- madhav

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

Unfortunately, I haven't been pushing myself on this one and other things are taking a lot of my time.
The best thing to do may be to buckle down and get it over with!


One way that works for me is to increase your participation in this forum. That way with increased traffic and more questions, you are forced to refer to the Spec before posting an answer.
One additional advantage I see is that you are constantly referring to a lot of material in a random fashion (based on what is asked) so your knowledge and mental stamina is challenged.
Works for me.
- madhav................encouraging people to post all their questions.

[ghanshyam sharma]

Hi guys.
I have working in architect roles for j2ee applications and right now i am in the development team at bea. The motivation for xml for me came through the new integration tools from bea they call it WebLogic Integration.
Since integration stuff requires a lot of XML and since WLI internally uses ebXML (or whatever, dont ask me what it is ) I thought better to get a bit of exposure to the field. Certification ??? because I always miss a hundred thing s in self study, certification forces me to read those boring topics which i normally skip around...
Now coming on motivation, I am in the same boat as you guys...Probably it is due to the highly syntactic nature of this topic (XSLT/XML Schema's, DOM/SAX API's ) I get tired of reading a new syntax every two minutes...
Value, hmm let me put down my view point, The certification is very valuable if you combine it with some other skills, SCEA/WebLogic/WebSphere/IBM OOAD/SCJP, such combination is going to give you a cutting edge over other competitors in a job interview...at least thats what i believe...
And the added bonus of being able to design an architecture better since you know all the plus and minuses of one of the component technologies...Its just priceless...
Keep it up guys...

[Roseanne Zhang]

Interesting! You guys are talking for me...
1) As easy as it is to understand, I must say it is much easier to forget.    ---madhav
2) One additional advantage I see is that you are constantly referring to a lot of material in a random fashion (based on what is asked) so your knowledge and mental stamina is challenged..    ---madhav
3) I'm building my XML FAQ here from all the discussions I've participated, a nice byproduct...
http://bobcat.webappcabaret.net/javachina/faq/xml_01.htm
4) I always miss a hundred things in self study, certification forces me to read those boring topics which i normally skip around....    ---ghanshyam

5) To Rajan : I guess we are very different. XML is easy, but boring. I'm much more excited by Java/C++ or even FORTRAN/VB. The most exciting stuff in this xml cert study is XSLT, since it has many hard problems to solve, which stimulates my brain to work well...

[Mapraputa Is]

Roseanne, I just checked and your XML FAQ is wonderful, just like your SCJP FAQ!
Can I add a link to it to our "XML Links" page?
And I agree with you about XSLT complitely!
------------------------
"The most exciting stuff in this xml cert study is XSLT, since it has many hard problems to solve, which stimulates my brain to work well..."
Roseanne Zhang

[Hariharan Raman]

Hi,
Interesting discussion..! According to me, albeit XML certification needs lots of work to be done (any certification for that matter) and patience besides to learn few vague topics..but we have to remember - any Modern technology would have to rely on XML to certain extent if not more..XML can be used on all kinds of platforms, includes Mainframes too. What more..? So, I strongly feel one should know about XML and certification is the fastest if not easiest way to learn them.
Hari.

[Roseanne Zhang]

Thank you, Map!
Go ahead to put a link to it and thank you for it too!

[ghanshyam sharma]

Wonderfull Job Rose...
You guys are reall great guys, I wish I had some time to contribute to all this effort, but seems like I am doomed with tones of work here.
:roll:
Again keep it up.
-Sharma

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

I wish I had some time to contribute to all this effort
Sure you can. Just ask us questions.
As for time, here are some suggestions:
1. Make time, don't wait (easy for me to say, I know).
2. Think of this as part of your work, as you are already doomed in it.
Anyways, hope you stop by at every change you get.
- madhav

[Hariharan Raman]

Roseanne..! Your FAQ page is really GREAT..! Keep up the good work..!

[Roseanne Zhang]

Thanks ghanshyam and hari for your nice words!
I'm still working on it, as long as I've not taken the test and pass it. After the test, I'll continue adding to it, but maybe not as diligent as right now. That is actually a recording of my study process. I certainly hope I would be as genius as some other people. Unfortunately, I'm obviously not. Sigh!

[Rajan Thiyagarajan]

Roseanne,
I work in Mainframes and donot know anything about Java. During my college days, I learned till C/C++. After that a gap happened and I started/continued working in the Mainframe environment. I feared that something great is happening in the software field and it will be pretty difficult for me to catch up with them/learning them.
Three months before I started learning XML and thus started getting in touch with many new software technolgies. Now I know Dot Net related stuff like SQL Server, C#, ASP.NET...... The reason being, I found XML very very interesting to learn. I bet, I understood each and everything I read the very first time. XML Spy made learning XML pretty easy, and fun. I started with the Sams Learn XML in 24 hours book written by Michael Morrison. I really admire that book, as it is ideal for a novice who wants to learn XML. I did not find any body mentioning about that book in this forum.
Anyway this thread is a real interesting one and has evoked the thoughts/feelings of all Java Ranch - XML Certification members. Thanks Madhav for your efforts. Really I felt that the participation by people have got reduced in the past three weeks and many discussions that were going one were not at all related to "learning XML".
- Rajan -

[sanjeev tripathi]

I agree with ghanshyam sharma and I am feeling that I am still missing the 2 important certs IBM XML and IBM OOA/D(UML).
I still feel like I m more good in oracle DBA/Desinger/PL/SQL then J2EE/java but unfortunatily I was not aware about certification that time.
sanjeev
SCEA/sun certified java prog/Weglogic server adm certified from bea/oracle expert but not certified.
[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: sanjeev tripathi ]

[Ajith Kallambella]

IMHO

This is like any other certification. You have to know the stuff and that's what carries weight when you are out there looking for a job or asking for more $$$. Certification is just a credential, but it is hard for any test to cover such a broad ground that the credential it self can be treated as a 100% proof of your competency.

XML is actually growing faster than Java. It is really surprising to see how the context of the technology has changed. Something that was originally invented by and for the publishing industry is now the de'facto standard for EAI and application plumbing. It is good to have some XML-related stuff under your belt. Since IBM is big, the IBM certification is probably worth more than others( Brainbench etc ) when it comes to recognition. Not to forget IBM is one of the forerunners of XML technolgy today. Sun is actually eating the dust.

I am really disappointed with the content of the test. Granted, it is hard to cover the entire ground of XML and related technologies in 70 and odd questions, but I would really like to see IBM revamping the contents and perhaps making tests that are more focussed on a particular technology. Who cares about syntax of XPath expressions when there are tools available that helps you build them on the fly? Instead of focussing on the syntax and nuances, they should perhaps focus on the applicability. For instance, they should come up with specific tests for XML and Webservices, XML for publishing, XML protocols and such.

Because of this shortcoming( see previous bullet ), every test taker and those who have passed the test should embrace the fact that there's a lot to learn out there that is not covered by the test. Complacency is bad. I have been in and out of the job market in the past 6 months and I can say with certainty, more people are asking for knowledge and experience in applicability of XML technology in ways that are even hard to imagine. So when you get past the certification stage, start actively participating in the other XML forum and also SOAP/WebServices forum.

Last but not the least, don't have an iota of doubt about the value of certification. It is certainly recognized especially when there are not many vendors with XML certifications.

Good luck to all

[John Wetherbie]

Ajith - thanks for your insight!
In case anyone noticed...
I removed a couple posts that didn't really belong in this thread at the request of the author. So, no, posts aren't mysteriously disappearing.
[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: John Wetherbie ]

[manasa teja]

I just want to bring this topic to top for new comers like to XML cert.
This post really inspired me to go for the XML certification.
I also understood that this XML certification needs lot of effort compared to what we put for SCJP and SCWCD.
I just opened w3schools.com/xml/ in another browser......
ram
SCJP, SCWCD