End of the IT cowboys

[Mehdi Chaouachi]

Ranchers,check out this article and tell me what do you think about it :
End of the IT cowboys

[Billy Tsai]

I red it last week and I think its a lie and b***s**t
that article is released by those tuition institutions&schools that provides certifications training which are also test centers themselves so of course they would write something like having any cert will benefit ppl, because they are trying to boost their only business and income by having more ppl taking the classes.
Hell I have even see several certification training schools and facilities still putting big ad and a flag outside their office saying gurantee $1 million salary after getting MCSE, what a load of crap.

[Matthew Anderson]

I agree with Billy. My certifications do not help me in getting a good job at all. My interviewers do not even know what my certifications are about.
Some even claim they are only theory tests with MCQs. So much for the hard work in my SCJD

[Al Newman]

This article was written to work on people's FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt). Of course it's written to sell training courses.
That said, I think certifications are valuable in many situations. You need to look at your personal situation and fit your certification strategy to your needs. I needed a way to show my Java and J2EE skills were strong, and the certifications helped me do that in two ways. They helped me learn what I needed to know in order to be able to ace the Java tests we see so frequently these days, and they show that there is something behind the buzzwords I use on my CV.

[Billy Tsai]

My opinion is if one want to get certifications he or she can study them by him/herself, and in this economy there is no way to make the transition from one field to another just by have certs alone, so one would have to at least get a relevant university IT degree at least.
Anyway maybe the certs are useful in india or China, but definitely not here ,the US and UK

[Mehdi Chaouachi]

I can't understand you billy, you have done so many certificates so far, and by reading some of your posts i see that you are planning to do many others in the near feuture and then you are always saying and insisting on that certifications are useless !!!

[Rangarajan Suresh]

Yes... I agree...
Come on ,Billy. You have spent quite a fortune on these certifications.
Dont tell me that you are doing them for fun...
we have been reading the other posts too..

[Pradeep bhatt]

Billy,
Who gave you the false info that certification have value in India.
Certification help you to improve you knowledge only and not in getting interview calls.
I suggest you not to waste more money on certificates.

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
My opinion is if one want to get certifications he or she can study them by him/herself, and in this economy there is no way to make the transition from one field to another just by have certs alone, so one would have to at least get a relevant university IT degree at least.
Anyway maybe the certs are useful in india or China, but definitely not here ,the US and UK

[Al Newman]

People, you have to sell yourselves in this world. As Fred Brooks said about software engineering, There is no Silver Bullet, no one thing which will solve all of your problems at once.
That goes for finding work as well. The certifications are not magic. They cannot market themselves. In some organizations they are well known and will help, but lots of people don't know those initials from chewing gum. I help by spelling the full title out as well as the initials under the certifications section of my CV. But sometimes I have to tell a recruiter or even a client interviewer what the certification is and why it is important.
Some people are actively hostile to certifications. In this case I acknowledge that they mean little, then tell them a story of why I did it and what I learned from the process. You can often turn this into a positive by aiming to show you are active at learning new skills.

[Billy Tsai]

What I meant is dont waste money in going to those IT tuition classes or training courses for certs.
I have applied for many junior Java developer positions and I got declined for all of them, some gave me reason that ur skillset dont match , some say u r not strong in J2EE, some said u dont have any experience, some just ignored me pretending I didnt apply despite that fact I contacted them.
I am talking about junior positions here. Anyway I am still going to get SCBCD and SCEA if it still doesnt work out I got those two then I am relocating to somewhere else

[Pritesh Mohandani]

That's right. Move to India if you need jobs. See
Time Magazine Aug 4 issue.

[Mandeep Sethi]

Hi
I share the same experience as Billy Tsai ,I'm SCJP,SCWCD and so far no luck while applying for Junior Developer position.While I never expected these certifications to get me job ,the worst part is that some of the counsultants or headhunters ,I appraoched want me to give there own exams for Java language and server side technologies(BrainBench ,TechCheck Online) and hence am feeling that though these exams(I'm refering to SUN exams) are worth in gaining knowledge and maybe a little recognition ,there are definetly not worth the price.
Just my 2 cents
Mandeep

[Chintan Rajyaguru]

I do not think that simply getting a piece of paper (certification) adds any value and spending money (for trainings) to get certified is even worst. Those who are complaining that they do not get job even if they are certified need to set their expectations right. I do not think certification can get you a job; it can help you differentiate from another candidate with similar skill set but without certification. In old good days, certification also added some credibility and helped you nagotiate better salary while accepting a new job but gone are those days.
There are other ways to get recognized besides getting certified. Write an article for a website, help review an upcoming book, create a solution and share it with others (for example write Jave implementation for all the design patterns), write and present and paper in a conference (such as JavaOne) and so on. The job market these days is so tough that one has to find ways to differentiate himself from his peers. And remember, experience beats every qualification (you can disagree with me here but I am talking about IT industry as it stands right now).
Finally, I have seen many people wanting to use their certification for something (getting a job, getting promotion etc.) when they fail they blame the value of certification. It is important to remember that certification brings many advatages other than financial advantages. Also remember that there many other things required to get a job etc. besides certification.
(After such a long post, I am not going to say, "My 2 cents!")
C

[Billy Tsai]

Since certifications dont gurantee a job, there is definitely no need to waste even more money for the training at those IT tuition schools not to mention the exam fees are already quite expensive, if one want to get certified , just study by him/herself dont waste money taking the training.
you know I recently saw an ad on Yahoo showing "SCJP is the gurantee to job after graduation from universit"
I wanted to email them and say hey why dont have give me a job I already have all the certs.

[wr nieman]

Hi,
I recently got my SCEA certification. I work for a large IT services company in Europe. Being certified as SCEA helped me getting the architecture kind of roles I always wanted..but they also need people that are willing to get thier hands dirty with coding, which is a pleasure after months of drawing pictures and having meetings
What I try to say is that Certification is usefull but it should be part of an something bigger, you need to continue to learn new things (JDO, AOP etc), not be to arrogant but dont forget to keep your eyes on your long term goal. Certification is just one part of the bigger picture.
Regards
Wouter

[nileshsss Sonisss]

Hello Everbody
I have never written or replied to any of the threads but in this case i think i should put forward my comments.
I am from India & even here certs dont have much value. As is the case around the world interviewers have no clue what they are.
I reckon certification is a way to show your skills in that particular language/discipline. Comeon you have put some efforts.
Even I have half a dozen certs(Oracle,Sun,Microsoft etc) but no great job to boast of.
In India companies prefer university degrees(engineering) , irrespective of
whetther the candidate is interested in IT or not. He may not even have any IT experience or skills in particular to show but he is the one after whom companies run .
He may have done his engineering in Architecture or chemicals or mechanical or production or Civil Engineering it doesnt matter.
But for us Non Engineering guys (with dozens of certs & yrs of experience) dont even get a look in.
Companies dont understand tools & technologies they use & deploy arent necessarily developed by members of their cult.
I think they should give every 1 a fair chance to show their knowledge.
Its ok for them if a telecom engineer work on a financial application but they would never allow people with finance background to work on IT projects
Companies say they have a lot of applications & they have to filter out . No good excuse i think.
Hope someone conveys this message to Infosys. Wipro, Satyam , TCS, HCL guys etc
Regards
Nilesh

[Billy Tsai]

I am aiming for SCEA too. its one of those high level certs that you dont get training for it anyway except at Sun Educational services, just like SCJD as well.
OCM and CCIE are also high level certs that are really hard to obtain.
high level certs certainly have higher value than others like SCJP, MCP,CCNA etc... , and they dont just involve some multichoice exams.

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
I am aiming for SCEA too. its one of those high level certs that you dont get training for it anyway except at Sun Educational services, just like SCJD as well.
OCM and CCIE are also high level certs that are really hard to obtain.
high level certs certainly have higher value than others like SCJP, MCP,CCNA etc... , and they dont just involve some multichoice exams.

The CCIE is the most difficult certification to obtain without a doubt. Far more so than the SCEA. I worked with several excellent network engineers who were going for their CCIE's, and many of them had passed everything but the final lab. One of them had taken the lab five times, and three or four are not an uncommon figure.
It's so difficult that passing is largely a matter of luck. If the lab covers material you have covered and are strong with, you pass. Otherwise you fail, or so it seems.
I prefer the SCEA approach myself. It's difficult enough but you can control your preperation much better.

[Billy Tsai]

I reckon SCJD and SCEA are diffcult enough to be one of those high value certs, if u can study and figure out the assignment all by urself then you are quite good.
I heard CCIE only have 1 year value instead of 2 years for Sun's Java certs
and after 1 year they have take the exams again?
I know that Oracle Certified Master requires at least OCP and it involves some kind lab exam that takes the entire day not just for 2 or 3 hours but the whole day.
anyway SCEA will be good enough for me and I am gonna get it.
I just saw that ad on yahoo again showing "SCJP is the gurantee to jobs after you graduate"
that really pisses me off

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by Billy Tsai:
I reckon SCJD and SCEA are diffcult enough to be one of those high value certs, if u can study and figure out the assignment all by urself then you are quite good.
I heard CCIE only have 1 year value instead of 2 years for Sun's Java certs
and after 1 year they have take the exams again?
I know that Oracle Certified Master requires at least OCP and it involves some kind lab exam that takes the entire day not just for 2 or 3 hours but the whole day.
anyway SCEA will be good enough for me and I am gonna get it.
I just saw that ad on yahoo again showing "SCJP is the gurantee to jobs after you graduate"
that really pisses me off

Oh, I personally prefer the SCEA/SCJD approach, Billy. It is generally accepted that these exams are passable by people with a reasonable amount of preparation.
The final lab for the CCIE is a week long, costs $2000, and the pass rate is very low. Or so I have been led to believe.

[HS Thomas]

The final lab for the CCIE is a week long, costs $2000, and the pass rate is very low. Or so I have been led to believe.

Much better spending that kind of money at a good University and become well-rounded in other subjects too.
regards

[Al Newman]

Originally posted by HS Thomas:

Much better spending that kind of money at a good University and become well-rounded in other subjects too.
regards

They are different courses for different purposes. There is absolutely no reason for anyone who is not a very experienced network professional to do a CCIE, and most of these people already have a university degree. People holding the CCIE have major earning potential, I believe. I think it's too difficult, but Cisco would reply that they have another certification (CCNP) for merely competent network administrators. The CCIE is for the compleate experts.

[Billy Tsai]

if a company is paying and supporting a network engineer who already has ccna,ccnp,ccda,ccdp to obtain CCIE then that person should certianly get do CCIE,
CCIE sounds like harder then than a master degree, or should someone do a master degree that is majored in datacommunication and networking first then do CCIE