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Originally posted by <DKL>:
Sitting in front of computer in AC room and reading some links doesn't the reveal the truch.


Nor does listening to a bunch of extremists spouting nonsense. And I'm sure you, sitting on your computer and surfing the Internet, are really in touch with what the poor want and need. :roll:
But let's change track a little bit. Why don't any one of you tell us what you think a "forced" conversion is.
 
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everybody please read this discussion and LEARN something.
http://www.immigrationportal.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62314
 
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My question is whats the problem if some Hindu people are converted to other religion? Reason may be anything,poverty,insulting treatment by 'Upper Caste moderate' Hindus.And if super patriots like RSS/VHP find some forced conversion,why not bring those poor people back to Hindu religion?
Constitution of India allows any person to change his/her religion daily Now
Article 29 of constitution says:
" Any section of the citizens residing in the territory of India or any part thereof having a distinct language, script or culture of its own shall have the right to conserve the same"
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
But let's change track a little bit. Why don't any one of you tell us what you think a "forced" conversion is.


When you give anything in return except faith while conversion is for me FORCED conversion. Let it be medical aid, money, clothes.. anything.
And who thinks missionaries dont have money. Then I can only say that they are rich in India.
Rich in India, coz I want but still I cant offer flight to Jason. But these missioanries offer free trip to Europe (obviously for religious reasons) and that is also not to one or two guys but 1000s of guys. This is just an example why I think they have money.
As I told you, most of the convert will have their shop and house with in two yrs. God knows how do they make that money.
I do appreciate missioanries work but in the end when I think this point. For me all their good works goes waste.
I hate this line- The only way to God and arrow points to one place of worship.
hell, if it is the only way then I will make my own way. I dont belive in ONLY word.
As I have asked earlier Why one should convert in any other religion ?
Should not conversion be banned ?
By banning you are giving FREEDOM to everyone to follow whatever religion they like and at that time that will be total faith & nothing else. Then Ghasita Ram need not to change his name to John to pray to Jesus or to be called christian. Then he will be true christian though he might born in any other religion. Then people will call him christian cause he can not change his religion but he still follows philosphy of bible and believe that there will be dooms day.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Nor does listening to a bunch of extremists spouting nonsense. And I'm sure you, sitting on your computer and surfing the Internet, are really in touch with what the poor want and need. :roll:


I have repeated 100 times that I dont support RSS/ VHP.
But still I oppose forced conversion.
If a truth is said by bunch of extremist then should it be considerd lie ?? AW I have my way to find the truth before believing on something.
FYI, RSS/ VHP like missionaries do lot of social work also(they are always first to serve whenever there is any natural calamity OR disaster and at that time they dont ask religion of person.) but again their all good work goes in vain because of their aggressiveness and rigidness.
 
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

When you give anything in return except faith while conversion is for me FORCED conversion. Let it be medical aid, money, clothes.. anything.


As I said before, once I talked to an american missionaire in Chile, and my impression was "well, he is a salesman. In modern times religion is a business like any other". For sure, they have psychological training. I didn't like it very much. A lot of people in Chile see it as "imperialistic". I, personally, see this imperialim debate as highly exagerated. "The only way to god" signs are been seen as hardcore imperialism in Chile. I find them funny, not more. Others might see it differently.
A hardcore catholic elderly chilean lady I know accepts conversion to protestantism, because it helped lots of familys to start new living (father stops drinking), although she sees them as her competitors.
Even if the converted did become christian because of pragmatic economic decisions, I respect it as his decision. For me, you don't concede the poor the dignity to take free decisions. If he just do it for the money, its no deep conversion.
Don't forget that in the west there are "holy" man from asia who make their living with converting middle class people to mostly Budism. I once had a german budhist co-worker. So conversion is 2 way. And asian people allways make money with converting or being converted
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Anonymous
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Initially posted by Pakka Desi
{
What I am saying is there has to be an openness among the people of these religions to respect the local beliefs and get mixed into the local culture
}
I think you are not quite familier with whole Indian culture.For the centuries,people of all religions have assimilated with each other.Muslim/Christian from Kerala generally speak Malyalam and not Arabic/Latin .I personally know many Christians from Goa(Protestant) who have read bible once in their life time.Bengali Muslim speaks Bengali and Muslim from Maharashtra speak Marathi.In India,regionalism has played key role than religion.Thats why we see so many regional political parties.Indian culture is such that you just can't gather the people in the name of religion.RSS/BJP want to do exactly that and are trying for the years.RSS is doing this since 1925,when it was founded.
Whats the result?After creating much hatred,creating useless issues like Ram Mandir etc,for last 20-25 years ,still they can't get the majority and can't form the the government without 16 regional political parties.It clearly indicates majority of Indian citizens are not interested in religion and only interested in real life problems like jobs/Basic infrastructure/medical care/education
 
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Hi,
I was closely following this topic for the past few days and has read almost all the posts.
When I started reading this topic, I was shocked by the aggressiveness in the voice of pakka desi (others too) and their hatred against Christians(missionaries).
I am living in Kerala (South India) and here we do not have any problems like the one mentioned by Pakka Desi or Ravish. But, to be frank, I have also felt the actions of some in my religion to be quite irritative. I believe in Jesus and being a follower of christianity I respect all religions and their beliefs.
I also accept the fact that there are people among us (who call them preachers of christianity) who has contempt for other religions. I fully support Pakka Desi in saying that those people should be thrown out from a secular country like India. But such people are also among Hindus also. You cannot blame the entire christianity for such actions by some so called missionaries.
But I cannot agree to the views of VHP, RSS and all those communal parties. They are quite making a living out of flaming hindu minds against other relegions. Why the killing in Gujarat? Were those muslims (who were killed in riot)actually responsible for the incident which flamed violance? Whats does all the VHP and RSS organizations got to tell about it. They just made good use of situations like this.
Politics mixed with relegion is S***.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
So conversion is 2 way. And asian people allways make money with converting or being converted


I am with you ..
its all about money
If I am dictator then I will ban conversion and public will be allowed to practice whatever religion they want but they cant convert themself
 
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Mr Ernest, if you carry on making those kind of posts the powers that be will have to change the name of this forum from "Meaningless Drivel" to "Well Reasoned balanced and thoughtful debate".... then where will we be.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
1,000s of people being flown to Europe to get them to convert? Are you out of your mind? Imagine the staggering cost! What is a roundtrip flight?


You do calculation.
I am telling you this because I know these people(not all 1000, but 10 who joined these 1000s) who had gone to attend some meeting related to christianity(he told me even the name of that kind of meeting....) and not on their money for sure.
They are already converted and do some charity work. They really ask those people(whom they have served) to convert. And they do this charity work only to get fund from them.
For you it might be surprising, but this is truth.
Like someone earlier said


"... we have to convert this town, we have to convert this whole state, we have to convert this whole country. These people who believing in SATAN need enlightenment, only those who knows that Jesus is the only God who can show us a place in heaven will be saved in the final judgement day. All others who believe in this stones and statues will be punished on the final day. Final day is approaching us so quickly, so you have to act fact and as your turn convert atleast one person...."


If this is christianlity, then I am sorry, I interpreted Bible in wrong way where Jesus prays to God to forgive even his enemy. So for me even I am not christian but if I am doing good job then Jesus/Mohamad/Durga Ma/MyGod is with me. I dont need to convert myself to any other religion.



People have the right to practice whatever relgion they feel like and they can change on a daily basis if that suits them.


And I was thinking that there is difference between clothes and religion atleast for them who beleieve in religion.
And Jacob George no one is against good work done by missioanries.
I cant make Jason to believe this that I am not against the charity work done by missioanris but I am not able to convince myself about the way they do conversion.
Right now I am thinking about these catholic guys who are not declaring Mother Terasa a Saint and waiting for some miracle to happen.
xxxxxxxx [ edited by TP: I am getting tired of editing posts in MD. If you guys can't control your language then I'm going to start closing threads ].... a lady who died serving poor & sick people, rising above from all religion, and curing them also. Isnt it enough miracle she had done in her life.
But they want some miracle after her death that is also on basis of some doctrine written by someone in 15-16th century(God knows when).
And not one miracle, if I am not wrong then atleast 3 miracles. Miracles in 21 century...... :confuse:
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
There are plenty of religions in the US that preach that members of other religions are going to hell.


But I heard that americans love US to known as Christian country
Just joking ....
In US, I dont know but someone was saying that convertor will be giving speech or pamphlet. But here is scene is different, they dont stand on airport OR raiilway stations.
AW I am tired as you are also not wrong cause you cant see what I can see.
AW has anyone heard about Kabbaddi?
Dont see dictionary ...
you wont find it in dictionary
 
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Personally I don't believe in all that "Saint" silliness that the Catholic church practices anyway :roll: . Mother Teresa was revered the world over whether or not she ever gets an official title from some religious organization.
And I am sorry Ravish, but what you describe is NOT forced conversion. They were not FORCED to do anything. Perhaps they decided to convert based on the wrong reasons, but at least it was THEIR decision, not YOURS.
And that business about not allowing conversions is just plain dictatorship - not even worth talking about.
 
Cindy Glass
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
But I heard that americans love US to known as Christian country



Not the 25% of America that is NOT Christian
.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
A cancer sufferer who is cured after asking for Mother Teresa's intervention would be a good example.


Dont worry, here also catholic follower knows it and one miracle has been registered .. now they are waiting for approval from vetican city
and for me its all drama .....
AW have you heard abt Kabbaddi ??
 
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Jason /Thomas
I am IN NO WAY DEFENDING THE VIOLENCE that happens anywhere . Just trying to figure out the cause .
My questions to you ...Please answer them if you post again ...
1) Why do missionaries choose to help people they can convert to christianity ?? Why not all the poor people In India ?? If thats what Christianity and missionaries are all about !!
2) If the American people feel that their Culture was threatened they KILL ALL OVER THE WORLD.(I believe a certain section in india felt their culture was threatened too...again im not justifying it...its wrong......but xxxx [ edited by TP: Please try to refrain from using 4 letter words. Pretend that your 9 year old sister is reading this thread ] happens). The Americans have their forces almost everywhere from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Combodia, Sierra leone....and very soon IRAQ.
People Die As a result of American Bullets.Bombings in Afghanistan did not kill only Al Qaeda men (Accoring to your logic NO ONE....NO ONE should have been killed BECAUSE NOTHING JUSTIFIES MURDER SO EVEN AL QAEDA MEN SHOULD NOT DIE ). WHY ??? IS Killing justified Only for the AMERICANS (Again DO NOT SINGLE OUT THIS STATEMENT AND TWIST IT TO SAY IM 'JUSTIFIYING' WHATS HAPPENING IN INDIA)
OR is it just Double Standards that your 'WAY OF LIFE ' is more important than the any other in the WORLD .
All Im saying is A very Very small section in the Indian Society considers that their WAY OF LIFE is being threatened and resort to methods they should not.A certain MR BUSH will cause at least thousands of Iraqi Deaths because His DADDY had an Agenda.
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Nor does listening to a bunch of extremists spouting nonsense. And I'm sure you, sitting on your computer and surfing the Internet, are really in touch with what the poor want and need. :roll:
But let's change track a little bit. Why don't any one of you tell us what you think a "forced" conversion is.


Jason,
Why do you think that I'm pointing at you. I'm talking about all the people who is debating in this thread, including ME. Don't think that people not agreeing with you are extremists spouting nonsense. My concern is that has anybody in this thread really tried to understand what's going on in tribal areas in India and other parts. Reading some news links doesn't really reveal the truth. *Some* people in this thread *may* have seen this forced conversion persoanlly because they lived/living there. Since there are talking against you it doesn't mean that they are liers.
 
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Can anyone tell me what we are discussing ??
AW have you heard abt Kabbaddi ??
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

But let's change track a little bit. Why don't any one of you tell us what you think a "forced" conversion is.


Forced conversion is anything done with external influence. The term Force does not necessarily imply 'Physical' Force.
Force here can be pressure on social or Economic or any other aspect not otherwise part of the persons way of life....(The concept of pressure to improve lifestyle is also force..its not human to be able to resist . However religion loses significance when this is done)
 
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
xxxxxxxx [ edited by TP: I am getting tired of editing posts in MD. If you guys can't control your language then I'm going to start closing threads ]....


Hi TP
I dont think I wrote anything hurting... but still if yoy find that it could have hurt sentiments of someone than thanks for deleting those lines.
But what abt my freedom of speech......
let me say what I am saying , why are you deleting it. Alleast I am not cursing group of other people by saying that you will go to hell
I am out of this thread .....
thats why I said, I dont like such talks cause other wont agree on it. Whatever you do. If I ask how can you make 100% sure that someone has gone to heaven? It might be hurting to someone's religious feeling.
So I wont ask it.
Bye Bye ....
AW does anyone know abt Kabbaddi ??
 
Cindy Glass
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No - no one knows about Kabbaddi.
And what the heck does AW mean?
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Cindy Glass:

And what the heck does AW mean?


I want to tell you about Kabbaddi and you are asking what is AW
AW => anyway

No - no one knows about Kabbaddi.

I am sure atleast two knows what is Kabbaddi?
one is me, who is other one
Hint: Kabbaddi has link to Asiad
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
1) Why do missionaries choose to help people they can convert to christianity ?? Why not all the poor people In India ??


Missionaires choose to help poor people period. Whether or not they may convert them. As they believe in their religion they will also try to spread it. As missionaries have finite resources they may concentrate their efforts in certain areas more than others. In general they try to go to where there is a need. Doubtless that they will prefer to go to areas that not only have a need for their aid, but are also more open to hearing their religious message.

2) If the American people feel that their Culture was threatened they KILL ALL OVER THE WORLD.


Americans do not fight to maintain their culture. Our culture is always changing and assimulating new ones. We fight to protect our lives and livelihood. There is a HUGE difference.

(I believe a certain section in india felt their culture was threatened too...again im not justifying it...its wrong......but xxxx happens).


They may feel that way, but that doesn't give them license to kill.

The Americans have their forces almost everywhere from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Combodia, Sierra leone....and very soon IRAQ.
People Die As a result of American Bullets.Bombings in Afghanistan did not kill only Al Qaeda men (Accoring to your logic NO ONE....NO ONE should have been killed BECAUSE NOTHING JUSTIFIES MURDER SO EVEN AL QAEDA MEN SHOULD NOT DIE ). WHY ??? IS Killing justified Only for the AMERICANS (Again DO NOT SINGLE OUT THIS STATEMENT AND TWIST IT TO SAY IM 'JUSTIFIYING' WHATS HAPPENING IN INDIA)


There is a difference between killing and murder. There is also a difference between war among nations and wanton butchery. Likewise there is a difference between intending to kill somebody and not intending to kill somebody. If you are not able to comprehend these differences, that may be part of the problem.

A certain MR BUSH will cause at least thousands of Iraqi Deaths because His DADDY had an Agenda.


Your ignorance knows no bounds it seems. This may be how you choose to see it, but you are mistaken (that's not an opinion by the way). You should try getting your facts straight before going down this road (and you won't even need to take a trip to the US :roll: ). Regardless, if you would like to have a discussion on that subject I would be happy to humor you, but this isn't the thread for it, as it has nothing whatsoever to do with religious intolerance and persecution in India, which is I believe what we were talking about.
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
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Originally posted by Marcus Green:
Mr Ernest, if you carry on making those kind of posts the powers that be will have to change the name of this forum from "Meaningless Drivel" to "Well Reasoned balanced and thoughtful debate".... then where will we be.


You do realize you're going to hell for saying that, right? Meet me wherever they keep the poker tables. You bring the beer, I'll bring Scotch.
 
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I will be there to welcome all of you
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I believe what we were talking about.


First time I am convince with you.
Yes, we were talking abt some meaningful things, and with order from Satan I also involved myself in that meaningful discussion.
AW do you know about Kabbaddi ??
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Sounds sort of like tag. How do you know if a player is holding his breath?


Tussi great Ho Pra ji
What is tag ??
The player who enters in other team's area has to continuosly say KabbaddiKabbaddiKabbaddiKabbaddiKabbaddi.....
If he breaks this chanting in mid then he is out
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It's a kid's game where one person is "it" and he has to chase everyone else and tag someone. The person tagged becomes "it" and he has to chase everyone else. And so on.


Looks like Chor-Sipahi....
But Kabbaddi is different.
You have two teams, which team out all members of other team wins. They do it by entering in other's field and by touching opposite team's members and coming back to their own area. During this exercise, he has to chant KabbaddiKabbaddiKabbaddi....
If he loses his breath and after that, before coming to his side if he is touched by opposite member then he is out.
I hope, you got the game...
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Since when do Americans kill people because our culture is threatened? We defend oursleves when we are attacked. Give me an example of where Americans attacked someone because they were deemed a threat to our culture even though they didn't pose a pysical threat.


An example - the Klu Klux Klan lynching black men because they threatened their pre-Civil war way of life.
I suppose this doesn't actually count - this was not a response to an external threat. Although they were Americans, they did not represent the values as espoused by the current (amended) Constitution.
Mark
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
[QB][/QB]


From where you are ??
May I know names of some local games ??
 
R K Singh
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Do you know Kho-kho ??
 
Jason Menard
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Why don't you just start another thread?
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Jason Im In Maryland ...so I can at least say Ive been to your country and know what im talkign about . So Lets talk about this after you visit india.

Originally quoted by Jason Menard

There is a difference between killing and murder. There is also a difference between war among nations and wanton butchery. Likewise there is a difference between intending to kill somebody and not intending to kill somebody. If you are not able to comprehend these differences, that may be
part of the problem.


Im Sorry Jason ,I seem to have misunderstood some of your previous posts where you say NOTHING can justify Murder .
Apparently US Bombing In Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia or Combodia which kills innocent civilians can be forgiven because you did not intend to kill anyone.....but unintentionallly your bombs drop on some sleeping persons house.
Phhhtttttt !!!
Cummonn ...Jason you can do better than that. Were talking about Human lives here arent we ??? Or did I miss some of your deep ,intellectual and morally justified arguments???
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]
 
R K Singh
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If I start a new thread then you will say that this is already being discussed here and it is as good as it was there
Anyway which game did you play in your childhood ??
AW do you know about Kho-kho ?
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Pranav Jaidka:
Im In Maryland


That's rich. Whatever else you have to say about this country, it seems like it is good enough to provide you with employment and/or an education.

...so I can at least say Ive been to your country and know what im talkign about


The statements you've made have not indicated this as of yet. What you consider "forced" conversion isn't even forced, so it really makes the argument moot. The only "forced" conversion that has been shown is that which was put upon Christians and animists by Hindu extremists.

So Lets talk about this after you visit india.


Again, as has been stated by several here, we don't need to visit a place to pick apart flimsy arguments based on extremist or supremacist viewpoints. We will just have to put it down to a difference in philosophies... People in this country believe in freedom for all, many people in your country apparently only believe in freedom for certain people.

Im Sorry Jason ,I seem to have misunderstood some of your previous posts where you say NOTHING can justify Murder .


Nothing can justify murder.

Apparently US Bombing In Iraq or Afghanistan or Somalia or Combodia which kills innocent civilians can be forgiven because you did not intend to kill anyone.....but unintentionallly your bombs drop on some sleeping persons house.[/qb]


Wrong again. The unintentional deaths of civillians cannot be forgiven. I do have the faculties to recognize a difference between intentionally targetting someone for murder, and accidentally causing the death of someone however. I can give you reasons why these occur, but it is not an excuse for it.
As I said though, this can be discussed to any degree you would like in another thread. You are simply trying to make the actions that occur in your country look less appalling by pointing the spotlight somewhere else. <yawn>
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:
Anyway which game did you play in your childhood ??


Doctor.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Doctor.


You would act like doctor and your friend like pateint and someone nurse......
If you ask me then I will call this game "Doctor-Doctor"
 
Ranch Hand
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Enough of this pointless discussion. Jason et al will never be convinced and need not be convinced. I (and many many Hindus) do not want missionaries to carry out conversions in tribal and other poverty stuck area. That's it. If they want to help, then they can help...without any strings attached. Now if you (Jason et al) don't consider converting people by bribing as unfair, we can't help it.
If the local population has made it abundantly clear that they don't want missionaries there and if missionaries are still having an itch to help, then I will definitely not take the responsibility of the consequences. Entering into enemy teritory, in spite of warning, and expecting them not to take any action is stupidity.
 
Pranav Jaidka
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

That's rich. Whatever else you have to say about this country, it seems like it is good enough to provide you with employment and/or an education.


Ha ha ha.....Jason Do not take me to be an opportunist...just because I said I dont agree with something you said.
Your country provides me with education /Employment but it does not do so without a selfish motive on its own . The H1 system is in place because of shortage of resources in the US . Thats what it said on my visa application which your govt accepted .SO ???
As for Education ...I pay for it .
Big Deal !!
How is your country doing me a favour ??

Why does it make me selfish. I did not say US is all bad ....its the only super power so apparently is doing pretty well.
[ October 18, 2002: Message edited by: Pranav Jaidka ]
 
Cindy Glass
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Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
If the local population has made it abundantly clear that they don't want missionaries there and if missionaries are still having an itch to help, then I will definitely not take the responsibility of the consequences. Entering into enemy teritory, in spite of warning, and expecting them not to take any action is stupidity.


Enemy territory?? When did India get to be enemy territory?
What you are describing is complete religious intolerance - sort of the OPPOSITE of freedom :roll: . I think we could call it bigotry - yep.
If India did not WANT missionaries in India, they could simply have them exported. No violence or hatred required. Simple bureaucratic procedure.
Apparently it is only SOME of the folks in India that have decided to take the law into their own hands. I believe that we would call them vigilantes. We have them in America here and there also. Course in America the vigilantes would go to jail if they actually acted the way some of Indias seem to.
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