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Certification expires in 2 years

 
Rama Raghavan
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SCJP2 did not have this...
In a not so big a font, at the bottom of my SCWCD cert is Expiration Date: <date>
Agreed technology is "fluid", but hope SUN is not counting on this being a cash cow.
It takes more than 2 years from final release of the spec to when containers implement the spec "bug" free on most platforms. And yet another X years before companies migrate.
You see..I'm
 
Alan Williamson
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I believe Sun should have an expiration on certificates, but 2 years is short.
 
John Pritchard
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SCJP2 1.4 has a two year expiration also
There is a thread in the Programmer forum at som elength discussing why they have started this
 
garth schneider
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You do not have to have a expiration date on my Clipper programming certificate to know that it is no longer valid. Who is using Clipper anymore??? It seems rather stupid to have a expiration date on a language certification that has its version on it. I mean you never loose your ability to use that language at that version. If someone in the future needs someone to program Java at version 1.2 I am always going to be certified to do that if I have a version 1.2 certification. Sun is just trying to make money. Lord knows they need it. Look at there stock.
Garth
Sun Certified Java Programmer 1.2 (before Sept no expiration )
[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: garth schneider ]
 
Rick Portugal
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I plan to work for another 20 years. Does that mean that I have to renew my certification ten times?!?
Sun should be careful about this. Some people feel that certs are not valuable, and that vendors only have certification programs so they can make more money. Unfortunately, this adds fuel to that fire.
 
Zafar Ali
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I am fully agree with Rick Silva
Sun should change the policy. Not only certification expire after 2 yrs your 150$ destroy too.
 
Vedhas Pitkar
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This is really VERY mean....If Sun has started this money-pulling then we should boycott SUN instead of Microsoft.Ok, upgradation is one thing but expiry???
 
Peter den Haan
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Originally posted by Rick Silva:
I plan to work for another 20 years. Does that mean that I have to renew my certification ten times?!?
Reality check.
Imagine your company got a "Microsoft Certified OS Support Engineer" to manage your computers. Management checks his credentials with Microsoft and yes, he is what he says he is.
Three months later. The computers are a virus-ridden, misconfigured bluescreen fest, the network has a spaghetti topology dropping more packets than a dog has fleas, and the Feds have marched off with the entire board of directors because the company web server has been hijacked to distribute 31337 W@r3Z. So you check with Microsoft again, and discover that your "Microsoft Certified OS Support Engineer" got his certification on the brand-new cutting-edge MS-DOS 1.25 operating system released August 1982.
Wouldn't you be a little bit upset with Microsoft?
Java Server Faces and many other innovations are coming soon. In four months, Sun will release version 2.0 of the JSP specification, and half a year down the line many of us will start to see profound changes in the way we develop JSPs. In a year, you will have to have learnt many new skills or face obsolescence. In two years, the knowledge you got now will be almost worthless unless you continued to maintain it. The certification you've got now will mean nothing to an employer.
Sun's policy is just a recognition of the facts of a software developer's life. They protect the value of the certification, ensuring that it actually means something to be Sun certified -- would you rather have it completely meaningless like the hypothetical "Microsoft Certified OS Support Engineer" above? It makes no sense whatsoever to be angry with Sun. You can be angry with life, but that won't get you anywhere unless you actually change careers.
And FYI, if you think the $100 should be enough to provide Sun with a tidy profit, think again.
- Peter
[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: Peter den Haan ]
 
Guennadiy VANIN
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Originally posted by Rama Raghavan:
SCJP2 did not have this...

I took mine in Oct., 2001 and it did not have neither 1.4 nor 1.3, (was on 1.2, if I remember correctly) , only Platform 2
Originally posted by Rama Raghavan:

In a not so big a font, at the bottom of my SCWCD cert is Expiration Date: <date>

Sounds like Sun wantslsending you renovated Certification Kit every 2 years... does not want to loose your address
Look from the other side, if Sun is going to give specs away to public domain, it might have wanted to wash hands...
 
Guennadiy VANIN
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Originally posted by garth schneider: You do not have to have a expiration date on my Clipper programming certificate to know that it is no longer valid.
Who is using Clipper anymore???
I had job just 2 years ago dealing with Clipper...
Sun is going to give JAVA into public domain and washing hands
 
Guennadiy VANIN
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Originally posted by John Pritchard:
SCJP2 1.4 has a two year expiration also
There is a thread in the Programmer forum at som elength discussing why they have started this

You've got me... I lost my nerve.... Should I retake SCJP2 (before any versions and terminations) in order to be eleigible for SCWD exam?
I have no desire to go to "Programmer certification", it is the biggest forum in JR. Can you just give the link or just to sooth me...
 
Rick Portugal
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So you check with Microsoft again, and discover that your "Microsoft Certified OS Support Engineer" got his certification on the brand-new cutting-edge MS-DOS 1.25 operating system released August 1982.

If his certification date wasn't listed on his resume for some reason, I would think that the hiring manager would know enough to ask. I don't know of too many places that will hire you because of your certifications alone with no questions asked. It's not often that someone will get hired because of a cert even though he hasn't used the technology in 15 years.
I understand your point about how fast the technology changes. But preparing for this exam is a considerable time commitment. It is taking me three months to prepare for this exam (in addition to my job, and other responsibilities). I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to do this every two years.
 
garth schneider
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G Vanin,
I did not mean to slam Clipper programmer's. I wanted to find an example that would make my point. My point is that expiration is nonsense. You are certified at a point in time. There is a date and a version of the product on the cert. Any employer can read that and know when you were certified and how much has changed since then. If they have to ask you other questions in interview to make sure you know your stuff they will. The fact that you got certified initially is saying a lot about your ablitities as well as your potential for learning. I have a life away from work. Studying for the Java exam is a lot of work that goes above and beyond work. I don't think I want to do that exam over and over again every 2 years. I will be taking more and more advanced exams though (ie.. EJB IBM 483 and 158 etc,etc.).
If you are DOS 6.0 Certified it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that you are outdated. For the most part if you are Java Certified even 1.1 you still have a great background to do well with Java. I do not see the Microsoft example holding any water.
And no, I would not be mad at Microsoft for hiring someone with inadequate skills based on the fact that person had a valid old certification from 1982. I would be mad at myself or the HR person for not interviewing and looking over resume and certifications well enough.
Garth
[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: garth schneider ]
 
Peter den Haan
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Originally posted by Rick Silva:
I understand your point about how fast the technology changes. But preparing for this exam is a considerable time commitment. It is taking me three months to prepare for this exam (in addition to my job, and other responsibilities). I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to do this every two years.
Apologies up front if what I'm saying sounds unpleasant... then you wouldn't survive in my world, Rick. In a competitive software development environment, you've got to keep up to date or you're out of a job within two years. You chose a profession that changes extremely quickly.
That all sounds a lot harsher than it is. If Java web development is a regular part of your job, it shouldn't be all that hard to keep up. If you're up to date, it shouldn't take you three months to prepare for the exam. If web development is not your job then, well, keeping a decent skill level in anything is going to be hard if you don't exercise those skills (and not a very effective use of your time either).
It's part of being a professional. A surgeon is supposed to keep on reading the Lancet and its like as well. The software development profession is still suffering too much from the "Brain Surgery for Dummies" and "Learn Dentistry in 21 Days" mindset for my liking. If a sell-by-date on certification helps the professionalisation of the industry, I'm all for it.
The bottom line is, the recertification requirement is driven by the rate of change in this profession. When you say that it's not reasonable to require a massive update of your skillset every two years in order to recertify, you are effectively saying that it's not reasonable that the profession changes as quickly as it does. But reasonable or not, it does, and most of us knew that when we entered the field.
- Peter
 
Rick Portugal
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you wouldn't survive in my world

You are certainly welcome to your opinion regarding Sun's recertification policy. But you have no idea whether I would "survive in [your] world" or not. I have been a Software Engineer for 20 years, and I'm surviving just fine thank you. Your comments are not only harsh, but arrogant.
Consider this scenerio: You have three Sun Certificatons: SCJP, SCJD, and SCWCD. Am I correct that under Sun's recertification policy you now have to recertify EACH cert every two years? That's a part-time job in and of itself!
I understand that the more experience you have, the easier it is to prepare for the exam. But no matter how much experience you have, it is still time-consuming. I have heard tell of some quite experienced people taking the exam and failing it because they didn't spend enough time preparing.
 
Rama Raghavan
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You have three Sun Certificatons: SCJP, SCJD, and SCWCD. Am I correct that under Sun's recertification policy you now have to recertify EACH cert every two years? That's a part-time job in and of itself!

I understand that the more experience you have, the easier it is to prepare for the exam. But no matter how much experience you have, it is still time-consuming.

Couldn't be better stated - Rick.
I have been a software engineer for over 12 years, and worked in each of the areas for resonable time-frame before getting certified...and I agree, it does take time and effort..and should I have SCEA by this time next year, it'll be about time to start all over?
 
Rasika Chitnis
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First of all, it is not necessary that a person certified in the latest version of a language will prove to be the best developer in the real world, especially considering the fact that passing percentage is quite low (around 61%).
In my humble opinion, the certification alone does not mean a lot. After all, what matters is the actual work experience. I would say 80% weight is given to work experience and only may be 20% to certification. I don't think anybody gets hired on the basis of certification alone without supporting facts like no of years of experience in a certain field. It does help you though in one aspect, i.e. your resume stands out in hundreds of resumes for same position.
As far as expiry of the certification is concerned, if one is certified in one version of java, jsp or servlets it still tells something about the proficiency of the person even after five years. If there are two applicants for same position one with no certification and other with a expired certification, I think the first person will definitely get some weightage.
Honestly, I think the certification should be done for learning purpose. If you get to work on latest technology in your day to day job, then no need to go out of the way and get certified. But, if One does not get a chance to try out latest technology in daily job, then it is something worth considering, especially if the employer is paying for it. and of course, when you are forced to study, you definitely learn some nuances, which you may not otherwise learn on the job.
 
Peter den Haan
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Originally posted by Rick Silva:
But you have no idea whether I would "survive in [your] world" or not. I have been a Software Engineer for 20 years, and I'm surviving just fine thank you. Your comments are not only harsh, but arrogant.
My wording was deliberately provocative, and in truth I have no doubt about your ability to survive However I did by no means mean to be arrogant.
I don't really think every certification should carry a two years expiry date. Because the Java language and core libraries are much more stable, the SCJP certification can easily have a longer shelf life. I'm not sure that SCJD should have an expiration date at all; to me, it is much more about proper development practices, OO design and so forth than about particular technologies. But a SCWCD cert really has become obsolete after two years, and if the SCWCD qualification itself is to have meaning then I wouldn't really know any other way than recertification.
- Peter
 
Guennadiy VANIN
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Originally posted by Rick Silva:
I understand that the more experience you have, the easier it is to prepare for the exam. But no matter how much experience you have, it is still time-consuming. I have heard tell of some quite experienced people taking the exam and failing it because they didn't spend enough time preparing.

I agree. I think that for maintaining JUST ONE Sun Developer's Certification (2-3 exams) or MSCE (6 exams), it is possible only if to completely abandon any work. And if I want to progrees and have multiple certifications?

Originally posted by Peter den Haan:
So you check with Microsoft again, and discover that your "Microsoft Certified OS Support Engineer" got his certification on the brand-new cutting-edge MS-DOS 1.25 operating system released August 1982.

I can't imagine that such an experienced person who was certified as long as 20 years ago, when nobody even cared to be certified, would do such terrible things. If it is any plausible case, then for psychiatric illustrations but not for that of certifications
You know, my boss at my previous employment, used to present a company before clients: "We develop applications for Internet already 9 years...".
He told it to convey the idea of experience and not otherwise, all those stuff described with such imagination by
IBM has 150 years, is it a characterization of MS DOS 0.0001?

Originally posted by garth schneider:
For the most part if you are Java Certified even 1.1 you still have a great background to do well with Java. I do not see the Microsoft example holding any water.

I agree. I think that those who are certified in MS DOS 1.1 know much more than those certified in DOS6.0
I am thinking of taking certifications that do not need prerequisites of another certifications.
If it is going to have validity for only 2 years, I am cancelling my study for SCWD certification. It is needed for job-seeking, NEW JOB, not for doing real stuff and not for avoiding being fired from developer position.

Originally posted by garth schneider:
I don't think I want to do that exam over and over again every 2 years. I will be taking more and more advanced exams though (ie.. EJB IBM 483 and 158 etc,etc.).

Me too... But all those plans have at minimum other certifications/exams in prerequisites. I do not work now with Java, and even had I worked, retaking exams mean that you cannot support more than 1-2 in rotation, while otherwise you may move to dozens. I, for ex., thinking about C#.NET, XML, SCWD, UML/OOAD, and even MCSA (it gives more stable job and even interesting inter-disciplinary promises).
In the light of a new information, I shall rethink my certification strategy. I am thinking in eliminating those efforts that require long chains of certifications (with prerequisites of other certs and exams). It is just not viable!
If someone is Chem Engineer , received Diploma 20 years ago. It is all outdated, forgotten, from now non-existent country, but Diploma is valid. Does it tell that experienced Chem. Engineers explode chemical plants? that I should re-take 6 years of education each 2 years? NON-SENSE!
It is not about content but about rather achievement and my characterization of my personal potential capabilities. It also tells that even if person had not worked with that stuff some time he will update himself 10-20 times faster.
Why the same NONSENSE is applied to IT certification?


You know RUP 8incrementall development) and waterfall? The later is considered to be faulty and wrong. So, why the lost way of thinking floats again to the top? Why the same NONSENSE is applied to IT certification?
The certification does not make projects. To the contrary it distracts. The certification is needed primarily for getting jobs (or promotions). When you are in, nobody cares about certification. What does matter is whether you fulfill your tasks or not.
For HR such maintenance of validated certification (2-3 exams for developer or more in some nonSUN certifications) should mean that person had never worked but only studied to take and retake all the time exams!!! THANKS!
 
John Lee
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This is disgusting!
I will never upgrade my certs, unless it is really necessary.
 
Guennadiy VANIN
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