Score on Certificate

[sunil chow]

Hi Ranchers,

Just was curious to know the reason why sun is not printing the scores on their certifications
And there is no grading system as well( i mean based on the score btained). Any specific reason for this. I heard someone saying here
that a pass is a pass but then a 90+ score is a 90+ score right
Any comments...

Regards
----------
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit

[Jim Yingst]

Based on your past posts I guess this is probably supposed to be about SCWCD, so I'm moving it to the SCWCD forum.

[sunil chow]

Hi Jim,

The post was not specific to SCWCD but any sun certificates in general

Regards
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[Jim Yingst]

Well then there's more than one forum that could have been applicable. However Meaningless Drivel was not one of them.

[sunil chow]

Yes Jim you are right. Actually got a bit confused as to which forum should
i post as the question was a general one.

BTW any thoughts on the question
Any ranchers having any thoughts :roll:

[aashu garg]

i am also thinking in the same way
no score on certificate
what does this mean

[Marc Peabody]

I think it's for the same reason a grade point average is not listed on a college diploma. There's no reason for putting it there. A certificate isn't a report card.

If anyone needs to brag a high GPA from college they requst a transcript. Similarly, you get a notarized "transcript" of your test the day you pass.

[Rekha Gaikwad]

I think ur point is right sunil..they should put the grade on certificate..at least when u earn 90+

[rehans oberoi]

sun want everyone to to get passed
and just give us money of voucher
to increse the market value ,
more sun certified people

[Theodore Casser]

See, I disagree about printing the scores on the certificate. I don't see what the number has to do with whether or not you're a certified programmer. It's like drivers' licenses - your grade on the various portions (as mandated by your local authorities) isn't on your license when you get it, so why would this be any different?

Just my $0.02.

[Paul Bourdeaux]

I agree completely with Theodore. The certificate is not an appropriate place for a score. I like the college diploma analogy given before. If you want to show off a high score, do it in your resume or CV, although whenever I am on an interview or selection team, I tend to ignore scores anyway.

[rehans oberoi]

if a person got more tahn 90%
there is no use of taht high score .
without any good professional degree

[sunil chow]

Hi All
Thanks for your comments. But i have few points to make

If a person has scored say a 90+, don't u think his efforts
should be given due credit by printing his score on the certificate

Just because the score is not printed on the certificate there are
every chance that few people may lie about their scores. I know
it does not make them any good from what they are, but why sun is
giving room for this unnesscary mess

Few people might say that u can always know your score if check the score
report u get when u pass the exam. But most of the companies
are intersted in the certificate rather than the score report.

[Adeel Ansari]

Originally posted by sunil chow:
But most of the companies are intersted in the certificate rather than the score report.

Yes, because they just need a certified person not matter what score he/she got. Score might vary case to case.

In my case I dont have much time to spend on the test. I took SCJP test, casually, in my lunch hour that was half an hour time. I got less then 80%. Thats why I think the matter is pass or fail.

May somebody gets 98% because he/she spend really hard time in preparing, each and every section, for exam and on the otherhand somebody might get 70% just because he/she just take the test on the basis of work he/she has done in past.

[Paul Bourdeaux]

If a person has scored say a 90+, don't u think his efforts should be given due credit by printing his score on the certificate
That would imply that someone with a score of 90+ is a better programmer or more qualified than a person with a score of 80. This simply is not true often enough for Sun to make that assertion. A higher score is usually more indicative of the fact that a person received more questions in a sub skill they are well versed in (i.e. Threads).

Just because the score is not printed on the certificate there are every chance that few people may lie about their scores.
Who would they lie to? Employers? Most employers know that a score does not reliably correlate with skill, so they are not as interested in it.

But most of the companies are interested in the certificate rather than the score report.
Exactly. Again, a certification from Sun is a guarantee to a company that Person A has demonstrated a specific level of knowledge in a specific skill set. A higher score does not mean that the knowledge level is any higher. It just means that they did better on the certification exam.

Consider this scenario. If Sun began printing scores on certificates, employers could begin to gauge employee performance against the score they received on the SCJP. Before long a trend surfaces showing that experienced programmers who have been working in the technology for a number of years score lower than people who recently graduated from college and have the nuances of the skill memorized still. However, the experienced programmers perform better in a work environment than the new recruits. This inverse correlation between SCJP score and performance would devalue the Sun Certification because Sun is not honoring its guarantee to the companies.

This scenario is simply conjecture, but it is neither impossible nor unlikely. Unless you are reasonably sure that a certification score is a reliable comparison measurement, it would be irresponsible to publish them with the certifications.

BTW, I scored higher on my SCJP than Adeel, but I would never be pretentious enough to assume that I am a better programmer (in fact, judging from past posts, I would probably assume the opposite!)

[sunil chow]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your detailed response.

That would imply that someone with a score of 90+ is a better
programmer or more qualified than a person with a score of 80

We cannot call a better programmer but a person with 90+ will definetely know the nitty gritty details of the language/technology, as he has taken pains to understand them and is aware of those details when is he actually doing the job.


Most employers know that a score does not reliably correlate with skill

But i thought otherwise :roll:

Before long a trend surfaces showing that experienced programmers who have been working in the technology for a number of years score lower than people who recently graduated from college and have the nuances of the
skill memorized still

I agree with your point on experienced programmers performing well, but do you thing one can get a good score by just memorising things

I feel if you have a better understanding of the language/technology there are every possibilty of getting a high score

Regards
-------
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is

[Paul Bourdeaux]

I feel if you have a better understanding of the language/technology there are every possibility of getting a high score

You are absolutely right Sunil. A strong understanding of the technology will more than likely lead to a good score on the exam. However, not everybody with a strong understand of the technology will get a great score. And not everybody with a great score will have a strong understanding of the technology.

To put it into more of a scientific context (suddenly I feel like I am back in my cognitive psychology days... ), lets make the hypothesis that skill level has a strong positive correlation with exam score. Our null hypothesis would be that there is no correlation.

There are two types of errors we can make in testing this hypothesis. A Type I error would occur if we reject the null hypothesis, even though it is true, i.e. we claim to find a correlation when one does not exist. This is the most serious kind of error, and the one that Sun needs to avoid making.

A Type II error would occur if we do not reject the null hypothesis even though it is false, i.e. we do not claim that there is a correlation even though there is one. This type is less serious because it is not making an assertion either way. In other words, it is much safer for Sun to not assign extra value to a high score, because they do not want to make an untrue assertion about its relationship to skill set.

If Sun were to do some extended testing, it is both possible and likely that they would find a strong correlation between score and skill set. And in that case they would be justified in putting the scores on the certificate. But in the absence of any scientific testing, it would be irresponsible for Sun to put too much value on the score itself.

I hope this puts it into a different context for you. I don't want to devalue anybody's high score on a certification (especially the SCJP!). If you got a good score, you should be proud. I just don't think it belongs on the certificate itself.

[rehans oberoi]

anyway we have to accept the fact
score does not matters .
nowdays they are so many technologies
and techonlogy is changing
so much fast , we can see the example of upgrade of scwcd exam
itself. so if we just wait for getting good score .
i thought , it would be wrong notion ,
anyway i just want cerification .
score does not matters for me .
in india , i have seen , recruiters just want certification.
this is my view, this may be different from others
hope it will nor hurt anyone 's feelings
[ December 08, 2005: Message edited by: rehans oberoi ]

[rehans oberoi]

anyway certification is just the minimum eligiblity
for getting a good chance of interview, in that particular technology, than candidate has to go with interview,
if in interview , candiadate can answer the questions .
than he is 100%, otherwise fail

[sunil chow]

Hi All

Thanks for pouring in your responses

If Sun were to do some extended testing, it is both possible and likely that they would find a strong correlation between score and skill set. And in that case they would be justified in putting the scores on the certificate.

If there is not relation between your score and your skill set then don't u think your certificate just becomes a piece of paper without any meaning attached with it

But in the absence of any scientific testing, it would be irresponsible for Sun to put too much value on the score itself

Does that mean sun is using unscientific methods of testing

BTW I didn't get a 90+ in scjp, But in the process found how much pain/understanding/concentration one needs in order to get a 90+

Doing lot of mock exams

Doing lot of mocks will not put u in a position where u can score good, but a sound understanding of the language/technology does. Doing lot of mocks will give u an idea about the range/kind of questions u might encounter in the exam

Any comments who have scored 90+

Regards
-------
Experience is the worst teacher. It always gives the test first and
the instruction afterward

[Ishwara Varnasi]

Hi all,

Although it is true that certification makes your way easy to interviews, I think that it helps a programmer, both experienced and non-experienced, in more than one way.

For an experienced programmer, there are lot of tiny tricky things in language basics you are not be aware of. You may not be able to answer confidently some tricky language questions. When you do a certification, you are forced to learn these things as well. Certification covers lot of things that you will not be using in your day to day coding. When you complete certification, you are a perfect programmer! Certification makes your experience more meaningful, and complete.

For an in-experienced programmer, certification provides you the confidence and shows the way to learn new programming things. It sets the basics right, which will help you when you are into full fledged programming.

For me the knowledge and confidence I gain are more important than the score. I know good programmers who scored less and freshers who scored very well in certification. You cannot compare these. Hence I feel that Sun is right in not showing the score in the certificate.

Best regards,
IB

[sriRam gaddaM]

Hello,

Don't worry that your %scores are not printed on the cerificate.
You still have a way out. just carry your score sheet with your
certificate whenever you want to manifest that you are a 90%er or whatever.
that way, atleast you don't feel bad.

sriram
-------
SCJP - 92%
SCWCD - ...

[rehans oberoi]

anyway if u go with ur marksheet ,
u must be smart enough to answer all the
question of recruiter.

[Rajesh Vijaya]

Hi Ranchers...

This topic is really making ways.....Even i was not fully content with idea of score not being printed on certification.But going thru this forum had really given an insight into how the entrepreneurs think...
And the cognitive psychology view point of paul was really amazing...i thought that would clear all the doubts of the fellow ranchers.....if one really understands it ......it has answer to each and every question on this topic....I found it really fantastic....

but alas...they are still some ranchers...who dont seem to be contended with that....I can understand their predicament...since i hail from the same part of the world where they(majority sample.. not genralised) are from...where importance is given more to the percentage of points....so we have been programmed to think from childhood that only percentage matterss...and one uses his marks not to assess himself....just to show that he is better than others....so in that scenario..one definetely gets dissapointed when his/her percentage are not manifested...

Once gain the Pauls explanation was really great....

[Rizwan Mohammad]

This thread is going way too long and thought of tagging myself here..
I agree with most of the ranchers opinion here that score has nothing to do with one's performance. It may match but not all the times.. So SUN doesnt want to take risk by giving importance to score wth wrong assumption..This was summary of Pauls post.
I got 90+ in my scja, scjp and scwcd exams but still i dont believe that score is needed on my certification. In my view certifications are there to learn about technology and testing ourselves for knowledge with SUNs help. Thats all I can say.
Hope I made some sense..

[sunil chow]

Hi Ranchers

Thanks a ton for posting your valuable views on the topic.

As i have said in my initial post i was just curious to know the reason and wanted to get some inputs from others regarding this topic.
And now after so many posts most of us here ( including me ) understand the reason for sun not printing the scores on their certificates.

Once again thanks folks for making things clear

Regards
-------
Experience is the worst teacher. It always gives the test first and
the instruction afterward