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the role of SCWCD and other certifications

 
s mahen perera
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Hi all,

I would like constructive feedback and ideas on the following .

I did my SCJP 1.4 exam in early 2005, and now i have 4 years of experience working with mainly java based web applications. (about 1 yr ejb 2 + swing, and rest of the years struts, jsp, spring etc ), and have an MSc in Advanced Computing.
I thought of doing an upgraded SCJP certification. and then move on to something like SCWCD/SCBCD or SCEA . But now i am having second thoughts on whether to do SCWCD or SCBCD or SCEA after doing the upgrade exam.

This is what i feel. It can be wrong, and its just my 2 cents --> SCWCD exams focuses too much on JSP and servlets, i mean the rigourous knowledge of APIs,, when the real world is all about using the available phlethora of web application frameworks such as struts, webwork, tapestry etc etc. SCBCD focuses too much on heavy weight app server based development , when the industry is moving more towards lightweight techniques such as spring. At least the use of EJB 3 is promising, which has some features similar to hibernate etc.
Anyway, so now i am wondering what to do? SCBCD or SCWCD or SCEA (motivation to do SCEA would come from the fact that i have now some experience ,, and of course i will have to go thru some material in the exams for SCWCD and SCBCD ,, but not in to details)....?
Would appreciate any replies.
 
Marc Peabody
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I can understand your argument applied to SCBCD but not for SCWCD. The frontend frameworks you mention are all layered on top of the technologies covered in SCWCD. It would be like a baker saying he doesn't need to learn how to bake a cake because the only thing important these days is the icing.
 
Christophe Verré
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SCWCD exams focuses too much on JSP and servlets, i mean the rigourous knowledge of APIs

You'll be amazed to see how many people, who pretend to know web programming, don't know about EL, Tag Files, etc and keep on using scriptlets in JSP. SCWCD is much more than a bunch of API and is definitely worth studying.
 
Ryan Day
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Originally posted by Marc Peabody:
The frontend frameworks you mention are all layered on top of the technologies covered in SCWCD.


I agree with Mark. The value of the SCWCD is that it forces you to understand what is being done inside the container when your framework is being used. For example Struts tags are an implementation of tag handlers (classic tag handlers in the version we're using), so to truly understand what the Stuts tags are doing, it is doing it is useful to understand how the supporting classes are built.

The core understand of the underlying request/response, session, servlet context, etc. is extremely valuable in learning the various frameworks. I suppose you could argue that the EL, JSTL, standard actions, etc. could be redundant if you were using the Struts tags instead. Someone else might speak to that area of the topic.
 
Ryan Day
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One more thought on this topic. Struts has a lot of tags that were created before JSTL and EL were introduced, and they were intended to be used with scriptlets.

Here is a quote from Ch. 15 of "Struts: The Complete Reference" by James Holmes:

Because JSTL offers a standardized set of tags, it is now the preferred approach for JSP development with Struts. Thus, applications should use the JSTL tag libraries and expression language instead of the Struts tags wherever possible.


Bottom line: the best way develop Struts applications is by using EL and JSTL, which are both a large part of the SCWCD certification.
 
s mahen perera
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Thanks everyone for all the very valid comments. After seeing all that, i now understand the importance of SCWCD ,, got to start doing it.

About SCBCD,, hmm,, seems like have to post it in the SCBCD forum to see more feedback on it.
 
Atul Sawant
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Originally posted by Marc Peabody:
I can understand your argument applied to SCBCD but not for SCWCD.


Marc, can you give us more inputs on this please?

Thanks for your reply!
 
Marc Peabody
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Originally posted by Atul Savant:
Marc, can you give us more inputs on this please?

Sure. What would you like to know?
 
Srinivasan thoyyeti
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Hi Ryan,

Quote worth to notice
Poasted by Ryan: Because JSTL offers a standardized set of tags, it is now the preferred approach for JSP development with Struts. Thus, applications should use the JSTL tag libraries and expression language instead of the Struts tags wherever possible.


Thanks a lot for that Ryan.
 
nitin pai
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Originally posted by Marc Peabody:
It would be like a baker saying he doesn't need to learn how to bake a cake because the only thing important these days is the icing.


Perfect

And yes, before I started to learn for SCWCD, I just thought there was no world beyond scriptlets. Learning for SCWCD has broadened my perspective about Java Web Technology. Of course JSF, Spring, Struts are all used currently but knowing the roots from what they originated is simply a remarkable experience.
 
Atul Sawant
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Originally posted by Marc Peabody:

Sure. What would you like to know?


When our friend stated "SCBCD focuses too much on heavy weight app server based development , when the industry is moving more towards lightweight techniques such as spring. " you kind of agreed with that. Correct me, If I am not wrong. Would you please let me know that if EJB is really something like developers and software organizations would not prefer and something which is know as "history". I know this question should not be in this forum but just because its been brought up i would like to ask... is it really worth gong for SCBCD?

if you ask me why i am i asking this...its because i am planning that next or maybe SCJD!

Thanks for your patience Marc!
 
nitin pai
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Well in my opinion EJB ain't history yet cause it has no replacement in any framework. If you see the lightweight framework, lets say for example Spring, it does not have the full functionality as EJB provides to the business tier. EJB surely is heavy weight but projects based majorly on transactions still use EJB from what I have seen. I don't know yet if frameworks which can entirely replace EJB exists or not. But it is evident with the launch of EJB 3.0 that the industry still adopts it very well otherwise SUN would itself have condemnded it. There must be some strategy to make it light weight in their future projects.

As far from the certifications point of view, I consider them to be the stepping stones for my next aspirations. In my case, I want to work in web development, thats why I have chosen to give SCWCD because I will be able to utilize the full benefits from what I have learnt. If I had chosen to work in EJB then I would have opted for SCBCD. SO it would be worthwhile if you chose from what you are aiming for or it would not be much benficial.
 
Marc Peabody
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Originally posted by Atul Sawant:
When our friend stated "SCBCD focuses too much on heavy weight app server based development , when the industry is moving more towards lightweight techniques such as spring. " you kind of agreed with that.

I was lumping the total argument and putting it against the two exams. The part that stuck out to me most was about rigorous memorization of APIs. There's a lot more of this in SCBCD. It's quite common for a development team to get all their EJB stuff put together early in the project and then rarely, if ever, change the configuration again.

Old school EJBs aren't history, but I wouldn't call them a de facto anymore either. Now with EJB 3 as well as Hibernate, I feel even more like the benefit of SCBCD wasn't everything I had hoped for. I can't speak with certainty about the latest version of the exam, but I suspect that it isn't much different in value.

The IBM 486 OOAD/UML exam is a great next step from SCWCD. That would be my recommendation.
 
Atul Sawant
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Thanks Marc for your input. I will google around the IBM exam you recommend.

Nitin - thanks for your input! I am not sure if you live in India or not. However, I am getting lot of interview calls on JAVA/J2EE here in Mumbai. Thats the reason why i thought of giving SCWCD + SCBCD (=J2EE). Is my perception wrong? or giving SCWCD is enough?

Also, I have heard from lot of developers here that Struts is too hot and almost everyone is using it.

Hopefully, i am not hijacking this thread!! Pardon me, if i am!!
 
s mahen perera
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, nice to see the thread i initiated is moving along quite nicely with very valid comments and feedback.

ntini, yes i think you have a point. The companies who need large scale enterprise level applications will not mind investing in heavy weight app servers if they have the money to invest in them, and if they see a clear ROI. But we cant underestimate the potential of lightweight frameworks in the market.
 
s mahen perera
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Marc, i agree with your point on how EJB based developement works on most cases. The company will initially do all the necessary configurations, and thereafter the developers will merely use tools to generate the code or else just copy and paste the necessary interface or deployment descriptors etc and modify where necessary.
hm,, just thinking,, but isnt this the case in many web based projects as well. Companies will say use some web application framework such as struts. In this case, the company will initially have all the necessary framework related stuff like a base action class, base form class and the struts config file, and thereafter the developers will just follow the routine work..
anyway, i think i see the point of learning the nuts and bolts of servlets, tag libraries and JSP.
 
Marc Peabody
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Originally posted by s mahen perera:
hm,, just thinking,, but isnt this the case in many web based projects as well. Companies will say use some web application framework such as struts. In this case, the company will initially have all the necessary framework related stuff like a base action class, base form class and the struts config file, and thereafter the developers will just follow the routine work..

For a while. But then business asks for some weird validation rules that you wouldn't dare try with Struts' validation.xml file. Or you have to add some AJAX feature that isn't already a part of the framework. Or the framework doesn't do what you expect because of a "leak in the abstraction".

Knowing the SCWCD topics really really helps.
 
nitin pai
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Originally posted by Atul Savant:
Thats the reason why i thought of giving SCWCD + SCBCD (=J2EE).

Also, I have heard from lot of developers here that Struts is too hot and almost everyone is using it.


Yes, I very much live in India. If you are comfortable in both i.e EJB and JSP/ Servlets and are willing to work in both then you might considere either SCBCD SCWCD or both. I am not so comfortable with EJB's, but I am comfotable with web services and JSP/ Servelts. Hence I completed SCDJWS and now trying for SCWCD. Its your perception and finally it is you who will be doing the job. So decide accordingly.
 
Atul Sawant
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Thanks Nitin.

I apologize you got me wrong. I think i didn't phrase it properly.

when i said "my perception" i meant the perception of a company recruiting java/j2ee developers. Any comments on that?

when then say J2ee, do they mean "dude, you should have knowledge of JSP/SERVLETS and EJB!!"

:-)
[ May 21, 2007: Message edited by: Atul Sawant ]
 
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