No value for SCJD in the industry

[shanmugam soundrapandian]

dear friends
I got SCJD last month. I show this to employer , mostly no one knows about it. I am still striggling for the job.
In the job market JAVA has no value.
This is a warning for those who are planning to do SCJD, please do not waste money on SCJD.
best regards
soundar

[Kevin Yip]

You could be right if landing a job is your sole purpose.
I think it's the process you go through, rather than the certificate itself, that is important.
Say if you're a java developer with 5 years experience, and there is nothing new you can learn by going through this process, then this process has no added-value for you.
Your employer employs you because you can answer what is RMI, how to write a JTable etc. which you don't know if you have not gone thru' the process. He/She employs you not because you show the certificate.
Of course, as I mentioned above, if you have not learned anything new, this process has little added-value for you.


[This message has been edited by Kevin Yip (edited August 15, 2001).]

[Peter den Haan]

If a Java shop is not at all aware of the basic certifications in the field, would you want to work for them? It smells of disinterest and, ultimately, obsolescence to me.
At my company, I've just conducted the technical part of some job interviews. We'd hire a SCJ2D over a non-certified developer any time, all things being equal. That "all things being equal" is important. Since we are offering permanent positions, we at least as interested in an employee's potential as in his/her qualifications. If you are a SCJ2D but, say, don't have an inkling what's in the works at Sun, you'd lose out against a non-certified candidate who shows a vivid interest in the field.
- Peter

[O Muthu]

Peter,
I am a full time Chemical Engineer and am learning Java because it is fun and because I can use it at work. I am planning to take the SCJD exam soon. But because of the format of the exam and because of all the detailed discussions that go on in this forum with respect to specifics on the Exam Assignment, it is hard for me to understand how any employer will give a lot of importance for the SCJD certification. I personally feel that the SCJP certification is more valuable from a qualification standpoint. For the SCJD certification to be more valuable, the exam has to be conducted like the SCJP exam at an authorized testing center. I realize that is not exactly easy to do. I wonder how Sun feels and how you feel about all the discussions that take place here regarding Exam Assignment specifics. May be Sun makes some money from this, and they don't mind, particularly in a tough environment like now.
Regards,
O Muthu

[Judy Xu]

Hi, friends:
Even if you earned Ph.D in computer science, you are not guaranteed to have a job. Some employers may not be able to recognize the value of SCJD2, that doesn't mean you are valueless. I believe most employers will recognize cutting-edge technology and you will be valued. It may take time in such bad economic situation, especially in America. Be patient.
SCJD2 fellow
Judy

[Brian Alexander Lee]

I work for a consulting company in Atlanta. Although being Dev certfied was not a hiring condition, they do look for this.
They offer 5k raises for geting prog, dev and architect. This is done solely for "presenting to clients" purposes.
The way I look at it is that being prog/dev certified will not hurt. It is more important to have experience and be a smart person than to be certified, but both is preferable.

[Ken Zrobok]

Originally posted by O Muthu:
Peter,
I am planning to take the SCJD exam soon. But because of the format of the exam and because of all the detailed discussions that go on in this forum with respect to specifics on the Exam Assignment, it is hard for me to understand how any employer will give a lot of importance for the SCJD certification. I personally feel that the SCJP certification is more valuable from a qualification standpoint. For the SCJD certification to be more valuable, the exam has to be conducted like the SCJP exam at an authorized testing center.
.....
Regards,
O Muthu

Are you for real? The SCJP exam can be passed by someone who learns their Java from study guides. I perform technical interviews on a daily basis, and I see a number of people who have their SCJP and fail the technical interview (miserably).
In my opinion, the SCJD is a much more valuable programming certification than the SCJP, although it does not guarantee anyone a position as a Java developer.
By the way, the reason that the SCJD is more valuable is that it is nothing like the SCJP!
------------------
Ken Zrobok
Java Developer/Trainer
SCJP SCJD

[This message has been edited by Ken Zrobok (edited August 15, 2001).]

[O Muthu]

Ken,
Yes, I am for real. What I mean is that the SCJP exam is taken as a regular in-class exam without consulting anybody. Whereas the SCJD exam is taken at home with all kinds of detailed discussions/consulting through forums like this. In my view, it is the detailed discussions regarding the Exam Assignment that make the SCJD exam less useful/valuable.
O Muthu

[Sajid Raza]

The SCJD reflects the process of a real project: following specification, deriving detailed requirements, researching implementation technologies, implementing the application, justifying decision, and creating documentation.
Frankly, the argument contending that the SCJD has less value because it is not an exam taken in a "secure" class-room is incredulous. First of all, a person who really wanted to could somehow outsmart the system on any test. Secondly, any person who did not do his project is quite likely to fail the follow up exam. Last of all, the exam requires research and consultation. If you ask someone or read a book, it is no different. I don't really see the big deal behind research and consulation involved in the exam.
The harder certifications such as the CCIE require some sort of practical work. Why would they include a project component in the SCEA certification?

[xi xi]

Even I passed the SCJP2, I do not know what kind of real java job I can do since Java is my first learned language and I have not any real experience in the computer filed. Now I am working on SCJD project .It is very difficulty for me, but I like it since it let me learn a lot new knowledges which I did not learn from SCJP2 and one more important that from this work I am doing a real project and get real experience which can not get from a classroom.

[O Muthu]

Sridevi,
I don't think memory alone will take you through the SCJP exam. A good bit of understanding of the concepts is essential. The intent of such an exam is to test one's understanding of the various concepts and not necessarily one's ability to memorize.
O Muthu

[Doug Melzer]

I believe that there is value in achieving these certifications, but I've also seen a lot of posts from folks with little work experience expecting to land a job just because they are certified.
The main value to me in achieving the SCJP was that it provided an opportunity to study the language basics. I believe someone with little experience could pass the SCJP if they invest a little time studying the basics. The bottom line is that someone will need to spend some time studying the language or they're likely to fail the exam.
The SCJD I believe will be somewhat more difficult if you are inexperienced. Even with some experience, you may find that you need to learn more about a facet of the language that you may not normally encounter in your job (i.e. GUI, RMI, server design, etc.). I like the project because it exposes one to a number of design tasks and requires you to develop a small client/server system. Do the work yourself and you'll become more intimate with the language.
If you beg solutions from this message board and don't understand what you're doing then it will be very easy for a technical interviewer to expose you.
As others have mentioned, all things equal, certification may provide an edge.

[Tom Ben]

I have to say that you can not just read the Study Guide Books and pass the SCJP Exam. If you have photo graphic memory ok. I just got the SCJP and found that I have learned more about Java and also noticed that I know more about it than the other Java Programmers I work with. The whole thing of getting the Cert is to show that you know certain things and not look it up. I do agree that there is people that pass and have done so thru those 2 week classes that cram it in your head and then send you out for the exam or they cheat I know someone who got their CCNA by cheating. These are the people that go on the interviews and make other Certified people look bad.
Getting Certified shows dedication and commitment!

[Dave McCarthy]

All of these certifications in my opinion are good to their own extents. The Programmer will show you have a good understanding of the basic principles/concepts of java. The Developer, would show more that you can take a projects guidelines and follow them to attain a desired result. For someone looking for a job, it's a sample of your work (I'm assuming it can be used in this manner), as well as shows you have initiative in that you paid to take on this project on your own. I've just recently downloaded my developer project and from my first look over it I do think it will be challenging. I am not overly familiar with all the areas it covers, but look forward to the challenge. My Programmer cert is leading me towards a job, and I think just the fact I can say I'm doing the Developer is just going to "ice that cake". I paid $300(Canadian) for my project. The one thing that makes landing a job difficult is lack of experience. I think 300 is definately worth it for someone without much experience. (someone like myself)
Just my 2 pennies.
Oh yeah - if anyone got any tips or recommendations on some good reading in prep for the Developer project/certification it would be much appreciated if ya passed it along . . .
[email protected]
Dave

[Paul Medford]

I've been reading posts on JavaRanch hoping to get an insight of what people experience during job interviews and whether or not being certified really helps landing jobs.
I have to say that I am very surprised that I haven't found anyone who has experienced what I've been going through for quite some time now.
First of, I live in New York where everyone I know is out of work, and where all the dotcoms went belly up leaving highly skilled professionals and lesser ones wondering what's the meaning of life (besides Java that is).
Anyhow, it seems that some disagree that a certification may give an edge while others believe that it shows dedication. Some go through the process of getting certified to feel a sense of accomplishment and "offically" show their knowledge in the language.
This said everybody seems to argue whether getting certified adds value or not, and then which certification is more valuable.
My personal experience trying to land a job as a Java programmer is not about how well I know Java but rather it is about the other technologies that nobody talks about.
For one thing, I have found that because most recruiters, hiring figures and a lot of techies conducting interviews are not familiar with what we go through to get certified they do not know how difficult those Sun certifications are, and how valuable they are. And therefore I don't think they really pay attention to certifications. As a side note I'd like to say that I never believed in certifications until I realized that in order to prepare for the SCJP2 I had to learn so much more than what I knew before starting studying for it.
To land a job as a Java programmer, the sad truth is that Java is not enough. I've been to so many interviews, or read job posts for which if your platform of choice is NT and the company works with Solaris, you're out. If you know iPlanet and they use Websphere, you're out. If you don't have XML on your resume, you're out. Note that you can't do much with XML without a parser (written in Java perhaps). If you don't have "derivatives", you're not in. If you know UML but you don't use Rational Rose, you're out of luck. Each and every interview I go to there's always something that comes up. For example, last week I had a phone interview. The lady sounded pleased that I was a SCJP2, but still mandated that I take a JavaScript phone test, which I miserable failed since everything I knew about JavaScript has long been replaced by Java.
So, my .2 cents on this is that maybe a certification will put our resume on top, but knowing Java only is not enough. The good news is that we always have something new to learn. The bad news is that if we learnt the "wrong" technology we may end-up without a job for a long time.
Please share with me your experiences (but now flames plz).

[shashank shah]

Recruiters are in general unaware of the fact
that if one knows EJB; knowing Weblogic, Websphear or
JBoss does not really matter much. Or if one knows sql
and has good db design concepts specifically knowing
MSSQL, Oracle or mysql is just a matter of day or two
(Unless they are hiring a DB admin)...
About SCJP ... There is lot that one learns by giving scjp but if u are already good at java scjp is ez for u so u dont get any knowledge but it also means that u already knew it all and its about proving it to recruiters.
Besides people who say that scjp is useless because it asks some stupid questions I wonder what they are generally asked in interviews ... because I always get questions like super and sub class having a field with same name during interview. And I always tell them that this is a bad design I ll never do that so doesnt really matter if its statically bound or dynamically bound.
-Shashank

[Siobhan Murphy]

I see that Brian Alexander Lee's company give a $5k salary rise to staff who pass each of the Sun certificate examinations. What sort of pay increases do other companies give?

[Tobias Boon]

I have had my SCJP for months now and thought it would increase my chances in landing interviews...It Hasn't...
Firstly, many do not even know about the SCJP or any Sun certification aside the certs for Solaris. I am in NYC and most jobs are simply for programmer with 3 years plus. SCJP, SCJD, ABCD or whatever certs may arise can replace experience.
I am proud to take and pass the SCJP and am studying for the SCWCD. It will give me the skills that employers are looking for despite experience.
In short, DO NOT look for certs as a final solution for job hunting. You'd be wasting your time if you think otherwise.

[Tobias Boon]

My apologies for not not proofreading. In the first paragraph of my last reply I meant to say that certs can NOT replace experience. Sorry about that...

[Ta Ri Ki Sun]

Originally posted by O Muthu:
Ken,
Yes, I am for real. What I mean is that the SCJP exam is taken as a regular in-class exam without consulting anybody. Whereas the SCJD exam is taken at home with all kinds of detailed discussions/consulting through forums like this. In my view, it is the detailed discussions regarding the Exam Assignment that make the SCJD exam less useful/valuable.
O Muthu

Have you ever done "open book" exams?
just in case not let me explain.
our exams were 9 hours in total, weekly, mondays to make sure you used your weekend well.
the first hour is memory stuff, parrot fashion study will get you through it, the next 2 hours is still theory but again parrot fashion will help, and a fair amount of understanding of the concepts will get you through these 2 hours quite well.
lastly you have 6 hours of "open book" practical, you can use books and API's to get the job done, and to me this is the same as the "detail discussion" you mentioned, because no matter which books you have or what you discuss, unless you explicitly post code which is generic enough to slot into anyones design and others can copy and paste, the discussions will only benefit you by helping you understand your problem, and books attempt to serve exactly the same purpose.
so as far as I'm concerned these discussions are very good, everyday many people are helped on their way with a subtle nudge in the right direction.

[Bartolo Almeda]

If you show your cert and show no knowledge of Java is obvious that nobody is going to hire you. You should learn how to use forums like this to exchange ideas of Software development with other people, why you think open source software is moving so fast, people chat discuss and learn from another ideas or mistakes to improve as a developer. And like somedoby said before if you take this or are thinking about taking it and you don't think you can learn simething new then don't waste your money. For me is good place to learn more about Java API's that I have not used as much in the past like RMI and to learn new api's like java.nio and regexp and obviuos exchange ideas to improve my skills.