IDE in GUI Development

[Boris Vaysburg]

Hi,
I am thinking of using VisualAge in composing the GUI. It generates the Java code and should not require any propritory libraries, afterwards.
The project spec says:
Your submission must run under a production (not development) version of Sun's Java 2 Platform. You may develop using an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) but your final product may not have any residual dependency upon that.
Do I interpret the 'residual dependency' correctly?
Thanks.

[Thomas Fly]

I don't think you can beat Borland JBuilder for an IDE (and anybody not using an IDE may as well code in assembler, IMHO).
However, JBuilder has an XYLayout that you'd normally use in your initial GUI design (essentially it's like having no- that is, a "null"- layout manager). Tell-tale signs of lingering XYLayout dependencies is an "import com.borland..." If you've got any such thing as that in your code, you AUTOMATICALLY FAIL. (That's a "residual dependency.")
JBuilder personal is free; you can get Enterprise & Professional in the form of 30-day trials (which you can liberally interpret as "30x24 hour" trials, by accurately noting your system clock when you begin & stop using it). I bought JBuilder Enterprise after my 720 hour trial expired.

[Max Habibi]

Hi Boris,
I recommend against it. You might find that coding it by hand is a very worthwhile experience. Also, don't forget that there is a written portion to the exam, in which you'll have to answer questions about your implementation. Are you going to be prepared to do so without writing all of the code directly?
M, author
The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 1.4

[parthiban subramaniam]

i dont know abut Jbuilder but i use
http://www.intellij.com/idea/
one of the best

it doesnt not write code for u .. but sure helps you devlope faster ...

cheers,
parthi

[John Smith]

I am thinking of using VisualAge in composing the GUI. It generates the Java code and should not require any propritory libraries, afterwards.

There is a simple way to combine the benefits of using the IDE and yet ensure that your code does not use any non-standard libraries. Use your favorite IDE for development, but before you submit your solution, build your project using a command line compiler.
Eugene.

[Max Habibi]

Eugene,
Unless you're testing on another machine, your suggestion is a little risky, bacause paths and classpath could be set at the system level. Thus, you might use a library without even knowing. To really, really test your app, I suggest jaring it up, and giving to a friend. If they can't make it work without asking you questions, then you're not done.
M, author
The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 1.4

[Thomas Fly]

Actually... with an IDE, you're going to have to specify your build options anyway- all the IDE does is execute the "command-line" build for you, at the click of a button.
I also think that you learn MORE FASTER by using an IDE.
What kind of options are available to you for a JLabel? JBuilder tells me I can put in an icon, and I can specify a text justification & an icon text gap (which is how I do my JTable formatting, using a 1transparentPixel.gif icon). Sure, you can read the API to learn all that, but it's right there for you in the JBuilder designer. (If you don't take the time to read thru, and properly comment, your designer-generated code, that's your problem; same as not looking at your RMI stub code.)
Likewise, what functions are available to you in String (etc.)? In JBuilder, I can switch the project from 1.4 to 1.3 in a matter of seconds, and see from the pop-up context menu (when I type "someString.") that in 1.4, I have split() available to me; in 1.3, I don't.

[Thomas Fly]

pardon me... text alignment rather than justfication :roll:

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Thomas Fly:
and anybody not using an IDE may as well code in assembler, IMHO).

Them's fightin' words for all us old farts that prefer the command line to some automated RAD tool that generates more junk than code. :roll:
Michael Morris

[Mark Spritzler]

I also highly suggest against using an IDE for your GUI development. I have found 100% of the time the code they generate, regardless of proprietarity?, is not anything like the code I would have written and usually has more code than it needs.
My 2 cents
Mark

[Boris Vaysburg]

Here is my concern on this issue.
If by residual dependency they mean that it should not require third-party libraries, I should be fine if I use an IDE that generates strainght swing code (e.g., VisualAge).
If, on the other hand they mean that that the code should be maintainable outside of the IDE, I'll have a problem since generated code is not very maintainable, outside of the generation platform.
Your thoughts?

[Thomas Fly]

Them's fightin' words for all us old farts

Hehe... I had to solder the (32) sockets into the $500 64k memory memory board of my first PC - my friends wondered what I'd do with "all that memory." And when I added a $4000 14" 25MB hard drive (not 5MB, not even 10MB, but 25MB!), so I wouldn't be tied to 256KB 8" floppies, I was definitely in the supercomputer class...

is not anything like the code I would have written and usually has more code than it needs.

Well yeah, probably not, but with a laptop that has 256MB of RAM & a 20GB (2.5") hard drive, what's more important- my time, or a few extra lines of code that I don't have to write, debug, or even look at for long?

[Thomas Fly]

Well, Boris, as far as maintainability goes, I don't see anything particularly "not maintainable" about JBuilder's GUI code (particularly since I shouldn't need to maintain it outside of JBuilder).
If you think that the world's going to run out of oil or spark plugs next year, then by all means go out and buy a horse; otherwise, kept driving your car.

[Michael Morris]

Originally posted by Thomas Fly:
I had to solder the (32) sockets into the $500 64k memory memory board of my first PC - my friends wondered what I'd do with "all that memory." And when I added a $4000 14" 25MB hard drive (not 5MB, not even 10MB, but 25MB!), so I wouldn't be tied to 256KB 8" floppies, I was definitely in the supercomputer class...

From that antecdote it would appear that I have warts older than you When I first started in this business RAM cosisted of ferrite rings wrapped in coils and disk "cartridges" were as big as a microwaves and held 256K. Consoles were teletypes, printers were as big as Volkswagens (and slower that one-legged dogs) and the most miserable feeling in the world was "dropping" the program you just "punched" and getting everything out of order. I remember wishing for just 16K of core (RAM), so I wouldn't have to tag all of my subroutines as LOCALS (that meant Load On CALl) or change them to bit-flip routines (assembler).
Michael Morris

[Thomas Fly]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Consoles were teletypes

Well maybe you win the "battle of the Old Farts" then... but I wonder how many folks remember that the hex code for an 8080 JMP instruction is C3 (spooky, at first I didn't release the shift-key quite fast enough there, and it typed C#). I thought I was in Heaven when the 16k (bit) EPROM came out. All that was well after I wrote my first Fortran program (in high school) on one of these however.

[Thomas Fly]

P.S. God, they don't make keyboards like they used ta!

[Michael Morris]

... my first Fortran program

Now why did you have to remind me of all those bad memories about FORMAT statements!! I guess I'll have to pick up a bottle of Mezcal and a bag of limes on the way home tonight to forget.
Michael morris

[parthiban subramaniam]

hahahahahahahahahah
all i can do is laugh readin all this

yeah back in school days dun remember those configurations excatly .. i was told not to step in to the room where they kept all this thigy's with my shoes on

parti

[Thomas Fly]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Now why did you have to remind me of all those bad memories about FORMAT statements!! I guess I'll have to pick up a bottle of Mezcal and a bag of limes on the way home tonight to forget.
QUOTE]
You mean you need a reason to do that???

Originally posted by parthiban subramaniam:
i was told not to step in to the room where they kept all this thigy's with my shoes on

Hey Parthiban, the more things change, the more they stay the same- my girlfriend won't let me use the laptop with my shoes on!

[Ashik Uzzaman]

What's your comment on using Forte For Java 4.0, Community Edition to build GUI for the beta exam? :roll:

[Thomas Fly]

Hi Ashik,
I started out using Forte (now "Sun One" I believe), which is based on NetBeans. Forte is not bad in some ways, but it is rather slow, and (unlike JBuilder, which let's you freely modify source code) the GUI code it produces seems to be maintainable only by Forte, which is very restrictive.

[Max Habibi]

Hi Ashik,
If you want an IDE, I suggest blueJ. It's clean, non intrusive, offers some debugging, and does some very minor relationship mapping. I'm using it myself for the Beta.
All best,
M, author
The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 1.4

[parthiban subramaniam]

hi guys,
Max .. i was just blown away by this amazing tool .. really .. somethin so amazing is for free .. ill play with it ...am havin fun with some friends here... so will be out till monday havin a gud time in london cya all on monday
cheers,
parthi.

[Max Habibi]

I'm glad you like. IMO, they did a nice job. I'm also using it in the Java classes I teach. It can a slow, but it's fairly nice.
M, author
The Sun Certified Java Developer Exam with J2SE 1.4

[Ashik Uzzaman]

Thnx Habibi, I am just downloading it now. I'll let you know my opine...

[Thomas Fly]

Well IMHO JBuilder Enterprise is worth every penny of its usual $2995 price tag- I'm continually amazed at all its time-saving features- and JBuilder Professional (normally $995, but Borland occasionally has sales on both versions) has most of Enterprise's features- including encyclopedic help, such as its own RMI tutorial. The help is also included with JBuilder Personal.
Free trial

[Kathy Sierra]

Originally posted by Boris Vaysburg:
Here is my concern on this issue.
If by residual dependency they mean that it should not require third-party libraries, I should be fine if I use an IDE that generates strainght swing code (e.g., VisualAge).

The language has changed and instead of the "residual dependency", it says you can use an IDE, "but not submit any code that is not your own work."
(and goes on to say that you must have no dependencies on any libraries other than those of the Java 2 Platform.
Bottom line: you're taking a huge risk if you use auto-generated code. I'd definitely write the GUI code by hand.
cheers,
Kathy

[Thomas Fly]

Originally posted by Kathy Sierra:
Bottom line: you're taking a huge risk if you use auto-generated code. I'd definitely write the GUI code by hand.

First, it's unclear what "residual dependency" could mean, other than that your code might include some 3rd party library.
Second, if you can do the assignment at all, it should be trivial to spot any such dependency (and remove it), and you're only wasting time by not using an IDE (and who wants to hire a six-figure developer that wastes time?)
Just as some examples, with JBuilder, I can quickly find where a given method is called, and so easily backtrace code (while editing); I can put a try/catch block (with the appropriate exceptions) around a statement with a mouse click; I can enter (long) class/method/variable names generally by typing only the first few characters; I can comment/uncomment code by selecting it & pressing Ctrl-/; I can move packages & classes by going to the automatically-generated UML and clicking; I can debug without using System.out.println...
Quite a few people have been using the tutorials I've posted: http://thomasfly.com/SCJD People are constantly dragging down my meager bandwidth downloading MP3s, and technical stuff like Blackdown JDK 1.1.8 (that they could get someplace else), so I encourage you to spend $9.95 and get the Borland JBuilder Personal CD, or download a trial version... or buy JBuilder SE while you can save $600 on it
For chuckles: 3 years Swing (JDK 1.3 or 1.4) (chuckle)