Meaningless Drivel

[paul wheaton]

(responding to Map in another post - a new thread seemed like the way to go)
Well, there's "be nice." And there's the rule about the names, but that doesn't apply in MD.
Right now, I'm banning "heavy topics" - and I'm leaving that to the forum moderator and the sheriffs to decide what that means.
We've had a lot of discussion on the future of MD and how to address my concerns as well as permit "heavy topics". Right now I feel that the thing to do is to post a web page that talks about what "nice" can mean. It won't be rules or anything. More like an essay. Along with some information on fallacy.
Once I have that posted, I think we can lift the ban and say that folks need to be nice or their stuff will be deleted.
There was also some talk about moderators (this would include the forum moderator and any sheriff) changing subject lines to warn folks about sensitive stuff. A few different ideas were bounced around, but I think I like the idea of the subject including "[HEAVY]" or "[GROSS]" or "[RATED R]". This should help to keep people from reading stuff they might be less than comfortable with. Maybe the original posters will save the moderators the trouble sometimes.
I think it might be wise to have more than one moderator for this forum.
As always: what do you guys think?

[Jim Yingst]

What, no replies from the non-moderators yet? I was waiting to give y'all an opportunity to speak up, but no takers yet - so I guess I'll go now:
I do think that we need to say up front that even if you yourself are being perfectly nice, the topic you're posting to can still get closed because too many other people are exchanging insults. I know this isn't really fair to the non-insulting folks, but the fact is that moderating these threads takes time & effort, and we need to put some limits on what we put up with. I've found in the past that if I try to just remove insults from posts, and allow everything else to pass, the workload just keeps increasing. People say whatever they want, expecting that the moderator will make it better later, and then there's a lot of whining if the moderator's actions don't match their expectations. I don't know about other moderators, but there's no way I'm going very far down that road again. My feeling is, if just one person in a thread is being a jerk, we can probably edit the insults out (if he's not too persistent) - but the moment one of his opponents decides to return an insult with another insult, I'd warn that the entire thread will be closed if people don't shape up. There's an open question about how many more warnings, second chances, etc are appropriate, and we'll have to see how things go here, but in principle there's some point where it becomes necessary to just close the thread. No, it's not fair to everyone, but the alternatives are (a) an impossible amount of work for moderators, or (b) the moderators give up, and insults run free. Those of you who think I'm making this up or exaggerating obviously weren't around for some of the more heated discussions we've had here. So I think it's important to warn people up front that it can happen. Plus it gives people extra incentive not to piss off others in the thread.

[Shura Balaganov]

As once been attributed to one of the "jerks", I guess I'll try to reply.
java.sun.com, microsoft "forums", and other similar "groups" are really not more than "sales support forums". Yes, they answer questions related to their technology. The problem they are having is that they are corporate-whipped. Or dry, pick one. Their primary purpose is "to sell the software and/or solutions of the parent company". Everybody knows that, that's why no person in their right mind will "hang out" there for anything but work.
MD was a place to hang out. Places to hang out are usually like that, you can have a wonderful time, or you can get beat up. Think "a club", think a place with a free spirit. Think global community with unbiased opinions. Think freedom.
By destroying MD, Javaranch "incorporates". MD is THE spirit of the site. Paul, it'll be a shame if Sun wants a clean cut site to put their banner on...
Hey, what do I know, I don't own a single bit of this virtual community. I am this community. When you make your decision, Paul, don't forget that.
Top 5 forums:
1. Programmer Certification Study - 89000 posts
2. MD - 37800 posts
3. Servlets - 33700 posts
4. Java (beginner) - 32500 posts
5. Moderators Only - 31000 posts
Shura "the anti-war monster" Balaganov

[John Smith]

Shura: MD - 37800 posts
Shura, you seem to be obsessed with statistics, it's not healthy.
Jim: What, no replies from the non-moderators yet? I was waiting to give y'all an opportunity to speak up...
Only because you asked, Jim. I truly respect you and your moderation, so consider this a favor. As currently been attributed to as one of the "crackpots", I'll try to reply, too. I know, I made a promise to stay on the sidelines, but I guess I couldn't resist my crowd instincts, after my compatriot Shura posted. This time I'll use the style that Leo Tolstoy refered to as the "hypebolical metaphorism" (not really, I am just making this up). Maybe Mapraputa can offer her opinion, too. This will make it an interesting "three mad Russians, the boss, and Jim the moderator" thread.
Paul, you still don't get it, do you? If all that you can throw in our faces is "I own this site, and I choose to publish what I want", "Get your own site if you don't like it here", "Be nice or we close MD altogether", and "The sheriffs and moderators don't have enough time to moderate", -- if that's your best arguments, then the war about the MD is over. You signed your own capitulation and you stamped it.
Your regime is demoralized, your key leutenants are deeply divided, your headquarters (Moderators Only Forum) are on fire, the number of defectors is rising, your fellow virtual citizens do not even bother to respond to this thread (except the local police and the Russian dissidents), and your flagship publication (MD) became a farce, an anecdote, a fucking Pravda. But everybody can read between the lines in there and see the stories about the regime brutalities. They are all over MD, yet many more are closed in the secret archives as "deleted". For the sake of the perceived "order", "peace", "friendliness", and the welfare of the green men who are horny for the "nice" meaningless drivel, you bastardized the sacred, the cherished, the untouchable. What used to be the core group of thoughtful people who knitted this place together in the most thoughtful way, became the thought police, the Securitate, the Stasi.
But your regime is collapsing from within, -- your sheriffs cannot look straight in the eyes of the citizens after they choke the little cow boys and girls, the civilians who happen to express a certain point of view, or chose a particular style, -- choke them with the mastard gas. The sheriffs tried to use the tear gas and rubber bullets first, true, but you encouraged them to murder. You gave them the authority to use the weapons of mass destruction, -- when an enemy of the people was spotted in the thread, the entire thread was routinely executed. Your sheriffs look at their bloody hands in disbelief and try to rationalize: "We had to do it, because the conventional weapons didn't work. And it would have been too labourious without the WMD. And some people like the big, strong, regulating government, so that the majority is not offended by the nonconformists." But an overwhelming blow of common sense suddenly makes their arguments futile. Subconsciously, genetically, naturally, on the cellular level, they know: "One shall not be censored". The world renowned thinker said, "The beauty will save the world". When it comes to the choice between the loyalty to the establishment and the honesty to yourself, you must choose what's beautiful.
And you Paul, you also seem to be lost, confused, disoriented, and undecided. Here is my advice: think transcedental and you will see the beauty. You violated the axiomatic conventions, you raped the dignity of the people, and gave the orders to your officers to commit the war crimes. And now, you are coming out to the streets of the nation's capital with your childish concessions? "More than one moderator for this forum"? Yeah, assign one for every poster. "Post a web page that talks about what "nice" can mean"? -- Please, do not insult our intelligence. "Heavy and light subjects"? Here is a heavy one for you: Paul Wheaton, you are on trial for the crimes against humanity, and the prosecution has spoken. Your own confession was used against you. Your surrender is not negotiable (well, unless Jim can come up with something sensible). You either plea guilty and restore the MD the way it was, or close it down entirely and thereby "incorporate". Oh, there is another choice, -- you can become an international terrorist and drop the nukes on the dissenters and the infidels. All it takes is to look up the IP address and to block it. It's just one serializable hashmap, and a few lines of code in the servlet that acts as a front controller for JR. Don't put it in the session facade servlet, though, it would have been an anti-pattern. Not much labor, and the problem solved.
-- Eugene, "a war monger" (for this occasion).
P.S. Disclaimer: Nothing personal. All names and events are fictitious. Any resemblance to the actual people, places, and events is a product of your swollen imagination. This post is meant as an excercise in the speech writing and is a social experiment, so maybe MD is more appropriate for this.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
If all that you can throw in our faces is "I own this site, and I choose to publish what I want", "Get your own site if you don't like it here", "Be nice or we close MD altogether", ....then the war about the MD is over. You signed your own capitulation and you stamped it.

No comments
Peacenik, who can go to war.

[Mapraputa Is]

Eugene: Maybe Mapraputa can offer her opinion, too. This will make it an interesting "three mad Russians, the boss, and Jim the moderator" thread.
As a card-carrying member of "a couple of crackpots" I feel obliged to provide my insight on the issue.
I was often amused how Shura and me have the same reactions, but I was probably more often disagree with Eugene than agree, so far. Well, so far.
What we have here is, as Jason once put it (on totally unrelated occasion), failure to communicate. Due to my anti-scientific observations, American audience (including officer personal) is largely happy with censored MD or (even better) no MD at all. No MD - no problem. There are exceptions, of course.
Am I mistaken, or an average Russian would prefer sincerity over "niceness" any time he gets a chance? Shura used to sincerely report a few times what's on his mind, providing "please, bear with me" warning, yet every time it caused a wave of indignation. Here is the latest after-life exchange, the original offensive post was removed from public eyes. I often felt the same urge to simply report all my irrational state of mind, with hope that it will be read as such, and people would clear me with some patience and indulgence. Last time a damn song brought me into this irrational state of spirit. And everything was Ok for a while, until it got really interesting. Here the thread was closed. Ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, comrades and comrades, what is one expected to feel when he (or she) is politely shut up? I couldn't overcome a desire to be nice, nice, nice, nice, dammit. Guilty.
"To moderate or not to moderate" -- I do not have the answer. I do not think anybody has. I too watched many unmoderated forums -- what a pathetic picture. The only forum I like is moderated. As I can tell, they also have a dense long-time community of participants - perhaps this is a natural way of communities evolution? Moderator is "provided" by host organization, though, he/she is not a part of the community. Now $1 000 000 dollar question is: did anybody try to go from "moderated" community to "unmoderated"? Can it be, that after certain point a community (moderated one) becomes strong enough to be self-moderated? Or is such a step beginning of the end? I often felt that our MD community is at least close to this self-moderated state, maybe this is why deletions and closing cause such an opposition...
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
"To moderate or not to moderate" -- I do not have the answer...

Try to get login name and then try to post new topic or try to reply
here.
Did you try ?
Did you like it ??
Here is also a psuedo rule "A home for free speech and free thinkers." Where your reply will be posted after 24 hrs and can be deleted for no reason.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Ravish Kumar ]

[Michael Morris]

Due to my anti-scientific observations, American audience (including officer personal) is largely happy with censored MD or (even better) no MD at all. No MD - no problem. There are exceptions, of course.
Am I mistaken, or an average Russian would prefer sincerity over "niceness" any time he gets a chance?

Excellant point Map. I guess we Americans are so used to thinking of free speech as an inherent right that we are oft times unwilling to agressively fight for it in small instances that don't seem to matter in the grand scheme. My original thoughts on the matter were (as you indicated ) if it may be bad for JavaRanch, then just get rid of it altogether. I'm not so sure anymore. I think MD must be moderated though in some form. What that final moderation may be I can't say. As for Americans preferring niceness over sincerity, unfortunately, you may be on to something. I personally find superficially nice people (you know, the ones that smile and act like they're happy to see you when you know they really hate your guts) to be a very repulsive lot indeed. But I have known legions of such Americans. I would rather be snubbed by their kind than treated "nicely". Hopefully we will iron this out and have a MD where the posters are both nice and sincere.
Michael Morris

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
Hopefully we will iron this out and have a MD where the posters are both nice and sincere.

How ??

[Michael Morris]

Well I see three possible outcomes:

Keep fighting about this and maintain the status quo.

Throw our hands up in the air and get rid of MD altogether.

Hammer out a compromise that is acceptable to the vast majority.

Being the eternal optimist, the only choice for me is the last. We will never be able to please everyone. Anyone who has so hardened their opinion one way or the other, is unlikely to accept any compromise and if the final decision is not to their liking they may decide to "shake the dust of JavaRanch from their feet." That's their right or if you will free speech.
Michael Morris

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Michael Morris:
I guess we Americans are so used to thinking of free speech as an inherent right that we are oft times unwilling to agressively fight for it in small instances that don't seem to matter in the grand scheme.

Personally I doubt that this has as much to do with a desire for "free speech" as it is a desire not to be told what to do :roll: . More of a control issue.
However that aside, I personally think that we should go back to the way that it was. Remove the ban on hot topics and do some minor fire control when necessary. It really was NOT all that necessary before - just occasional bush fires .

[John Smith]

Map: Am I mistaken, or an average Russian would prefer sincerity over "niceness" any time he gets a chance?
Absolutely. This topic deserves its own thread, and I tried to summarize it sometime before in this thread, in case anyone is interested.
Cindy: However that aside, I personally think that we should go back to the way that it was. Remove the ban on hot topics and do some minor fire control when necessary. It really was NOT all that necessary before - just occasional bush fires.
That's all I ask, Cindy, no more, no less.
Eugene.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Thomas Paul]

Eugene, have you ever thought of switching to decaf?

[John Smith]

Thomas Paul: Eugene, have you ever thought of switching to decaf?
You know Thomas, after some extreme set of circumstances once in my life, I had an "out of body" experience. It's when your consciousness condenses into one small ball and comes out of you. And then you are there, in that ball, and you are the consciousness, you are the nature, and everything is so clear, so simple, that you are terrified. It was by far the most fascinating moment of my life.
When faced with the problems, the American indians used the hallucinogenic plants, such as peyotes, to enhance their mental capacity and to find the right way. They believed that your "normal" state of mind is actually abnormal, clouded with bias, disfunctional. Have you ever read the books by Carlos Castaneda? I recommend Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge.
Eugene.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Cindy Glass]

OK Eugene, I ordered it.
I'll let you know if I actually UNDERSTAND any of it later .

[Francis Siu]

If nobody respond,it is the best
We can not avoid to make a decision to talk about something when you have question.
Do you agree?
When we make a decision to talk about it,first question arise.
Do you consider the situation that your speaking may be hurt someone?
Next question is
Do you stand in other side to see the situation(be hurt people) which you may not know? :roll:
And
What is the golden rule?
Treating others the way you would wish them to treat you
what I want to say is that we can Respect to each other

[Jim Yingst]

That's all I ask, Cindy, no more, no less.
Eugene.
Oh, really? :roll: From my point of view, what Paul describes in his first post is a return to they way things were in MD, as opposed to the current situation. We've long had a policy of deleting posts or closing threads if we thought they were too unfriendly, or that they would be too likely to provoke unfriendliness in others. If you didn't realize we did this, then that should count as evidence that our standards of what we consider "unfriendly" aren't nearly as oppressive and stifling as you seem to think. The only new things I see in Paul's post are (1) we want to put up better explanations of what we mean by "nice" vs. "unfriendly", so that people have a better understanding of how the forum works and there are fewer unpleasant surprises, and (2) we'll probably edit subject lines in MD to put in warnings so that those people who are easily offended can more easily avoid potentially offensive threads. I'm not sure what in Paul's proposal is so horrible that you feel the need to attack him rather than make constructive comments.
Nothing personal. All names and events are fictitious. Any resemblance to the actual people, places, and events is a product of your swollen imagination. This post is meant as an excercise in the speech writing and is a social experiment, so maybe MD is more appropriate for this
Oh, how nice, that makes it all better then. :roll: I see you have re-edited your post several times now, and the current version does seem a little more constructive than what I first read. But still, likening Paul to a terrorist, rapist, and war criminal? Do you really think that rhetoric like this has any potential to help the current situation? Or does it just feel good to vent, and bask in the warm glow of righteous indignation? I can't speak for Paul on this, but the main effect of your post on me was to cause me to mentally devalue your input. Your interpretations of the situation here seem so far from mine that I just can't see reasonable common ground for us. We're not going to be able to make everyone completely happy with any one solution. I'd like to accommodate as many different perspectives on this as possible, particularly those from people who have previously made fascinating contributions to discussions here in a number of different topics. But when I see you falling in love with your own rhetoric like this, I mentally move you towards the category of "people we'll never be able to please anyway, so ignore them".
Your surrender is not negotiable (well, unless Jim can come up with something sensible).
Unfortunately Jim has been getting really sick of the perpetual whining associated with MD, and the way honest attempts to move forward to a better situation are so persistently derailed by people. I really treasure many of the past discussions here in MD, but for all the work and aggravation I've come to associate with this forum (MD, not JavaRanch), I'm seriously qestioning whether it's really worthwhile to me any more.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
When faced with the problems, the American indians used the hallucinogenic plants, such as peyotes, to enhance their mental capacity and to find the right way. They believed that your "normal" state of mind is actually abnormal, clouded with bias, disfunctional. Have you ever read the books by Carlos Castaneda? I recommend Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge.

So the absurdity of your recent posts are because of peyote? That explains a lot. I did read Castaneda and found him interesting... when I was 16. I hope you realize that all of his writings are pure fiction, that there has never been any culture that comes even remotely close to what he writes about.

[Thomas Paul]

And I agree with Jim. I am wondering if any of this is worth the effort.

[Jason Menard]

Attempting to move this conversation back on track, I think Paul's proposals are perfectly reasonable, and hope that we move in this direction sooner rather than later. I believe it likely this would bring an end the strife that has been caused, and that the vast majority would find these guidelines meet their needs. MD would likely again become the kind of thriving community it once was for all parties concerned.
I would think that when people are asked their opinion on such matters, such as Paul asked for the community's opinion here, would have the sense to be constructive about it, and not needlessly attack people for it. When given the opportunity to voice their opinions on the future direction of a community they feel strongly about, you would think that they would take up the offer to provide a positive influence. On the other hand I would like to think that people might also realize, irrational though it may seem to them, that some members of our community might feel attacked and alienated or react emotionally when "their" online community is destroyed. Dismissiveness, condescension, and fallacious arguments are something both sides of the argument would try to avoid I hope.
Eugene, not to call you out by name, but rants like that, aside from being quite unfair to Paul and others, do not remotely help those of us who wish to see MD restored to some semblance of what it was. I recognize that you may feel passionately about this topic as many others do, but (and this is coming from somebody who has always appreciated your MD posts) it seems from where I'm standing that an apology is warranted and might go some way towards mending fences.
Now coming back to the topic, I am all for Paul's suggestions. If I have read their remarks correctly (and please forgive me if I haven't), I get the sense that Paul's suggestions are acceptable to Cindy and Mike as well. Again, please correct me if I make any mischaracterizations, but I have been under the impression that the sort of solution Paul has put forth is also acceptable to Jim, Map, and Tom. Yet we haven't heard from any of the community at large on what they think of Paul's idea. Ravish? Shura? Eugene? Anyone? You've all been given the opportunity to make constructive input, and speaking as an old-school MD regular , I would like to see folks provide some feedback. Right now, it seems that there is actually more agreement than disagreement, and if that's the case, let's press on.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[John Smith]

Thomas Paul: I hope you realize that all of his writings are pure fiction, that there has never been any culture that comes even remotely close to what he writes about.
I am not sure what you are saying, Thomas. Perhaps there never was Alice in Wonderland. Does it devalue the book about her expierinces? Carlos Castaneda's life is surrounded with mystery, but whether what he describes in his book actually happened is beside the point for me. I don't read it as a documentary, rather as an alternative perspective.
Eugene.

[Thomas Paul]

But Lewis Carrol never claimed "Alice" was a true story.

[John Smith]

Jim Yingst: But still, likening Paul to a terrorist, rapist, and war criminal?
Jason: Eugene, not to call you out by name, but rants like that, aside from being quite unfair to Paul and others, do not remotely help those of us who wish to see MD restored to some semblance of what it was. I recognize that you may feel passionately about this topic as many others do, but (and this is coming from somebody who has always appreciated your MD posts) it seems from where I'm standing that an apology is warranted and might go some way towards mending fences.
I feel that I failed to communicate, again. I don't know how else I can explain it. My post was designed to offend, to enrage, to personaly attack. I intended to start a bar fight, to shed some blood, get my skull crashed, and get arrested. I gave a fair warning in the beginning of my post about a particular literary style that I was going to use. Of course it is ridiculous to compare Paul Wheaton to Saddam Hussein. Yet the difference between them is just a matter of degree. When you amplify the degree, distort the shapes, and blow everything out of proportion, Paul Wheaton becomes Saddam Hussein. Kinda like Salvador Dali's paintings, you know?

My intent was not to be precise in characterization of Paul's policies, but to present a point of view, using a certain style of a figurative speech. It was just an implementation of what Shura said before, -- "MD should be a place to hang out, a club where you may have a wonderful time or to be beaten". Asking me to appologise for my style and content would be like asking Robert Frost to apologise for failing to explain precisely why he chose "the road less travelled by" instead the other one, or for using the politically incorrect word "black" in that particular poem.
There are infinitely many ways to express a point of view. A nude body can be represented by a set of cubes, or by a single yellow line through the painting, or in a classical form, or a peace of actual meat on display (did you see that notorious exposition of the British artists that Gulianni tried to censor?). So, whould you label Michelangelo as too offensive but let Picasso slide?
Don't you see, this is exactly the point of the fight that I started, -- to communicate through your and my pain that the censorship is not acceptable. You may question how successful my style may be, but don't ask me to apologise. I reserve the right to be an artist.
Eugene.
[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]

[Thomas Paul]

If I was Paul I would ban you from the site until you apologized. Pretending to have brains is no excuse for acting like a moron.

[paul wheaton]

I never realized I had so much character! Damn, I'm cool!
I think I'm gonna stick with my plan. On Saturday, Marilyn and I are going to work on the "be nice" essay. Hopefully, by Saturday night, we'll have it uploaded and will lift the ban.
Jim, would you be so kind as to line up three more moderators for the MD forum?

[Shura Balaganov]

Paul Wheaton: I never realized I had so much character! Damn, I'm cool!
Paul, you are damn cool!
Anyhow, just one more nail into "be nice" coffin. I'll open a little "foreigner" secret to you guys. It works like a charm here in USofA. When someone introduces a person to me, and can't find any other description but "he's a nice guy", it usually synonymous to "he's boring, unimaginative person without any special talents".
Russians have a slightly distorted views on freedom. In our eyes it is a lot more anarchical and free than maybe it should be.
Map: Can it be, that after certain point a community (moderated one) becomes strong enough to be self-moderated? Or is such a step beginning of the end? I often felt that our MD community is at least close to this self-moderated state, maybe this is why deletions and closing cause such an opposition...
At one point you wouldn't see a single thread closed in weeks. Ah, good old times...
Michael Morris: Hammer out a compromise that is acceptable to the vast majority
..or to whoever's left... :roll:
Cindy Glass: However that aside, I personally think that we should go back to the way that it was. Remove the ban on hot topics and do some minor fire control when necessary. It really was NOT all that necessary before - just occasional bush fires
It was NOT necessary, except for the war topics, because everyone thought war was a big mess and offered his/her own opinion. Now that the fighting is almost over, the flames of MD wars will calm down too. Unless, of course, there's next war...
Shura

[Francis Siu]

PROVERBS 21:2
Every man's way is right in his own eyes.
But the LORD weights the heart
PROVERBS 26:20
For lack of wood the fire goes out,
And where there is no whisperer,contentious
man to kindle strife.

[Kathy Sierra]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If I was Paul I would ban you from the site until you apologized.

Same here!
sadly,
-cowgirl
original founder of javaranch
(if some of you don't like what Paul is doing, you better be glad that *he* is in charge now -- you would have HATED what I would have done
This was my home, visitors were invited guests, and I can't believe what he puts up with in his home. )

[Melvin Menezes]

EK: ...This post is meant as an excercise in the speech writing and is a social experiment ...
If I were Paul, I would avenge your post by actually conducting a social experiment - make you a moderator for MD for a few days - and see the results. That way,
--you will be forced to spend time reading everyone's posts.
--You will be forced to spend time editing and deleting insult-filled posts.
--You will be forced to spend time sending private messages and emails to the offenders.
--While doing the above, you won't have enough time left to post something on your own, (and that will hurt the artist within you).
--The best part: you will be forced to practice something that is against your own views - censorship.
--And as if that is not enough, you will have to take the heat from those whose posts you will delete
Once in their (moderator's) shoes, you would see things differently (probably). The ultimate revenge for an intellectual being, isnt't it ?
Ok, I'm just kidding. Peace!
[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: Melvin Menezes ]

[Shura Balaganov]

Melvin Menezes: If I were Paul, I would avenge your post by actually conducting a social experiment - make you a moderator for MD for a few days
Can I be a moderator of MD? Oh, the revenge I'd have!...

[Todd Sanders]

Originally posted by Melvin Menezes:
EK: ...This post is meant as an excercise in the speech writing and is a social experiment ...
If I were Paul, I would avenge your post by actually conducting a social experiment - make you a moderator for MD for a few days - and see the results. That way,
--you will be forced to spend time reading everyone's posts.
--You will be forced to spend time editing and deleting insult-filled posts.
--You will be forced to spend time sending private messages and emails to the offenders.
--While doing the above, you won't have enough time left to post something on your own, (and that will hurt the artist within you).
--The best part: you will be forced to practice something that is against your own views - censorship.
--And as if that is not enough, you will have to take the heat from those whose posts you will delete
Once in their (moderator's) shoes, you would see things differently (probably). The ultimate revenge for an intellectual being, isnt't it ?
Ok, I'm just kidding. Peace!
[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: Melvin Menezes ]

Great Idea! Just like what they did to Jason Menard

[Francis Siu]

hi everybody
Now,I talk about the pure face
Paul is the owner
And we are the visitor
We have right to suggest some methods to help the ranch
And Paul has duty to listen the idea
Paul has right to make a decision
And we have duty to follow it.

Of course, the suggestion can not contain any unnecessary word or statement which contain some judgment to hurt someone.
For example
public class Suggestion
{
public Suggestion()
{
System.out.println("Paul,Can you employ more people to cope with MD because MD seem to be produced some problem");
}
public static void main(String[] argv)
{
new Suggestion();
}
}
oo...Jim
Does the class Suggestion contain any error?
I hope that without compile error
Finally, if somebody make a mistake,
I suggest that you should apologize for someone who were hurt.
Thanks for your attention

[aadhi agathi]

Hi racher family,
i am proud to address this way and comfortable too.
I would like to share my feelings on MD forum and javaranch in general. i would also like to say what i expect, considering i am an "end user" of this excellent forum. i don't want to point fingers as i know many of you form the pillars of this forum. Also i am not promoting/demoting any ideas/sites/concepts.

i know ths MD forum is not a
free open diary , wherein i will "exhibit" whatever i feel/believe/understand. It is a dumb site wherein there is absoulely no groupism . the motto behind the opendiary may be "if you like my first entry/random entry, care to read my other diary entires."
"Else i don't give a damn!"(similar to Rhett Butler's, in Gone with the wind).note though, anyone can leave their notes on a diary entry. But i hold the right of who can comment.
But IMHO, all javaranch forums have "seeking advice" as the motto and not "Let's find/ evolve at an amicable solution to some non-techincal thing
Because i feel that any non-technical thing can't be convincable to all .so i feel MD should be a "non-techincal seeking forum"
and nothing more!
Either i want to seek techincal-knowlege(non-Md forum) or non-technical knowledge/lighther moments (like Readers digest).

as a final thought i want to share some concept to you all.
when someone says "i love fish" it means different to different people. "i love to eat fish" might be one version.
so, its always difficult to say why someone loves MD. but love, we do.
Thanks for your patience!

[Shura Balaganov]

Here's a few suggestions for MD from JoelOnSoftware:
"Q. Your list of topics is sorted wrong. It should put the topic with the most recent reply first, rather than listing them based on the time of the original post.
A. It could do that; that's what many web-based forums do. But when you do that certain topics tend to float near the top forever, because people will be willing to argue about H1B visas, or what's wrong with Computer Science in college, until the end of the universe. Every day 100 new people arrive in the forum for the first time, and they start at the top of the list, and they dive into that topic with gusto.
The way I do it has two advantages. One, topics rapidly go away, so conversation remains relatively interesting. Eventually people have to just stop arguing about a given point.
Two, the order of topics on the home page is stable, so it's easier to find a topic again that you were interested in because it stays in the same place relative to its neighbors."
There's plenty more where it came from:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BuildingCommunitieswithSo.html
Shura

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Shura Balaganov:
Here's a few suggestions for MD from JoelOnSoftware:

Just wondering, how many unique visitors does Joel have? How many posts does he have on his site each day?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Just wondering, how many unique visitors does Joel have? How many posts does he have on his site each day?

You can ask this question here

[Thomas Paul]

Looks like about 20 posts per day. When he gets up to 1,000 we'll see how his idea works.

[Shura Balaganov]

Thomas Paul: Looks like about 20 posts per day. When he gets up to 1,000 we'll see how his idea works.
Alexa traffic rank of joelonsoftware.com: 70,431
Looks like it peaks at rank of about 40,000.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=joelonsoftware.com
For comparison: Alexa Javaranch.com traffic rank: 55,410.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details?url=javaranch.com
So in essence site traffic is pretty equal on both sites He does have a lot fewer posts though.
If you want to research a high-traffic community, try webmasterworld.com (Alexa rank 355, i.e. 355th site by traffic in the world!). They are a Webmaster resource site, and their rules are quite strict. I would've never bothered going there if not for great Webmaster resource discussions they have. They have a lot less sence of a community then MD had.
Shura
[ April 12, 2003: Message edited by: Shura Balaganov ]

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

Originally posted by Paul Wheaton:
I think I'm gonna stick with my plan. On Saturday, Marilyn and I are going to work on the "be nice" essay. Hopefully, by Saturday night, we'll have it uploaded and will lift the ban.

The documents are posted. Please read them and respond in the appropriate thread in MD. Thanks for your patience during this temporary ban.

Marilyn

[Thomas Paul]

Shura, his site is high traffic but his forums are not. What does this tell you about his fourms? Why should we try to emulate his forums?