Read this post NOW!! - Last Warning

[Ajith Kallambella]

Dear Ranchers,
If you are not a registered user, please register today!. Registration is free, it only takes a couple of minutes and it helps to run this site better.
Please try to use your real name, or atleast a meaningful alias if you wish to maintain anonymity, when you register. This is a technical discussion board, and we should maintain a level of professionalism.
Names like - "Anonymous", "Java Daemon" , "SCJP_99" , "Java Ghost" , "javahacks", "Ginie outside the bottle" , "Geek", "Java Centric", "Newbie", "Puppy" hardly looks professional, friendly and approachable. This is not a chat room and all of us are obligated to maintain the etiquette this forum demands. JavaRanch really encourages the participants to use real names rather than fictitious aliases which look very unprofessional and amateur. If your account currently does not follow this guideline, please create a new account that does.
Also please give your contact email address when you register so that the moderators can contact you if need be. Read what the sensei has to say....
Thank you for your cooperation and understanding!
Your friendly bartender
Ajith
[This message has been edited by Ajith Kallambella (edited September 19, 2000).]

[Tony Alicea]

Thank you Ajith for posting this. People should know that this the policy of the site and not just of one individual... (just in case!)

[paul wheaton]

Although conforming to this rule makes the guy that pays the bills for this site very happy.

[Paul A]

Hi Ajith,
I understand your concern about people using 'unprofessional' names but I beg to differ from making this a strict rule.
What would you (or anybody) achieve by making a user give his true name/eid or a 'professional' name for that matter? All people need here are answers to their questions/doubts. How does it matter if I get an answer from 'Anonymous', 'Geek' or 'Paul A'?
And if I want to answer to sombody's question, I don't care if he/she calls himself XXX or whatever. Because I know that there is a genuine person behind that 'unprofessional' name.
I hope you know that in a normal classroom lots of students don't ask questions even if they do not understand what the teacher is saying. The reason is (most of the time) the fear of ambarasment( i know i spelt it wrong!). I remember, I did not ask a lot of questions because I thought that was a very silly doubt.
Such discussion forums porvide an opportunity to users to ask even silliest of question, which I think is a great benefit of being anonymous.
I would say, if somebody want's to be anonymous, that's ok. Also, as unregistered users can't modify their messages (and other lack of functions), I think it is a good built in mechanism to encourage people to register.
People are not here to show their professionalism here....there is enough scope for it in our jobs.
Come on, it's fun to write by a crazy sounding name!
These are just my views and I have no intention to flame anybody but people with 'professional' names who spread useless rumours about change of syllabus are the ones you should be concerned with rather than persons with 'unprofessional' names posting genuine questions.
thanks,
Paul.

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[Douglas Wolfinger]

I haven't read any exam rumors on javaranch. I've read questions pertaining to the exam.
And I think a name gives a warmer impression. The handles are cool with me, too, but I totally understand the staff's position.

[paul wheaton]

I can understand using an alias for the first few posts, but by then I think folks have learned that there isn't much in the way of evil lurking here, so they can come out from hiding.
I want a place where I can talk to professionals. That is why I made the rule when I opened the site that folks had to use their firstname, a space, and their last name.
I don't really care if people log on as "Bob Jacobsen" and that isn't their real name. It looks real. At least they are putting up a facade of professionalism.
When I see people using obviously artificial names, it seems like a personal slap in the face to me. Not only did they read "Please use your real first and last name." and punch the "I Agree" button, but where you type in your name it says "(first name, space and last name)". I guess these people have shown that they have very little respect for me. To top it off, professionals feel like they are in a conversation with, well, folks that are less than professional. I feel personally afronted when I'm trying to talk to somebody and they feel I can't be trusted with their name.
There are lots of places on the internet to go be an anonymous ... well, whatever you want to be. I want the JavaRanch Big Moose Saloon to be a place for professional exchange.
I know that 99.9% of the people here are professionals. You can tell by the type of dialog that occurs here. I think that a lot of people were wary for their first few messages and then never bothered to switch to their real name later. Now I am requesting that people do this voluntarily. If enough people do it, I'll probably be satisfied and forget all about it. If not, I'll talk it over with the moderators and will probably lock out a bunch of accounts and require registration for all the forums. This will be a huge amount of work, so this should give you an idea of how important this is to me.
"Paul A", you say "Come on, it's fun to write by a crazy sounding name!" and I say "Come on, am I really asking for that much in return?"

[Anonymous]

First off privacy is an issue.
1: One company called doubleclick uses cookies and has contracts
with isps and collects information on users and then sells this
information to marketing corporations. All of this without the
knowledge or consent of users.
2: There are programs called email harvesters that scan
websites like search bots that look for bot tags in html,
well these harvesters can collected email address, user names
of webboards. Without the permission or consent of the owner
of the site!
3. Isp's do collect information on their users and store that
info in databases as do websites like amazon.com
4. Go to the mall, a bank, any store in the mall, and their
are cameras watching people. In NY city there are cameras
on sides of buildings that take pictures of all people who
walkby.
5. Marketing companies and your bank and credit card companies
that you use, can legally sell your bank account numbers, credit
card numbers and even your social security numbers. No bull shit! It was on cnn that a company was buying credit card
numbers and missusing them.

Summary:
Ok now you are starting to think about the lack
of privacy these days. Where does it stop?
All I have to say Paul is please think about this.
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dbnation/
Database Nation
The Death of Privacy in the 21st Century
By Simson Garfinkel
January 2000
1-56592-653-6, Order Number: 6536
320 pages, $24.95
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/dbnation/chapter/ch06.html
This is a sample chapter on how medical records are being misused

[paul wheaton]

"Cyberoptic",
This is interesting. This is an exact copy of the message that you posted to the JavaRanch forum. Cut and paste? I think this makes an excellent case for my position. I'm looking for humanity. What you are offering is "the machine".
Just to make sure you don't miss my post on the JavaRanch forum, here it is, cut and pasted:
1) What does that have to do with what's going on here?
2) JavaRanch users can protect their e-mail addresses from public view.
3) What does that have to do with what's going on here?
4) What does that have to do with what's going on here?
5) What does that have to do with what's going on here?
Summary: I am aware of the abuse of privacy. I don't see how this has anything to do with what we are talking about here. I feel that you aren't considering my position. Are my feelings about this not valid?

[michael huang]

i like this place, 'cause i like this place of talking between professional, and i do want to learn something.
i have met enough place of nonsence chat/bbs on internet, a lot of place is full of bullshit, and i do want this place is somewhere we can communicate some questions boring us on JAVA
thanks anyway
michael

[Jim Yingst]

Regarding e-mail address harvesters and the like - I think I see where "cyberoptic" is coming from. It doesn't really have anything to do with the "use a real name" issue (on which I support Paul Wheaton by the way), but it does have to do with the related "use a valid e-mail address" issue (which Paul doesn't care so much about, but I and others do) It's true that there are a lot of sites out there where if you submit your e-mail address, you start getting tons of junk mail. It's a valid concern. However:
(1) It's a simple matter to create a new account for yourself on the free e-mail system of your choice (such as yahoo), and set the mail forwarding on that account to go to your "real" (primary) account. Use the new address as your "official" JavaRanch address. If you ever start getting deluged with junk e-mail, you can turn off the forwarding at least so it doesn't clog your primary e-mail account. Then you can either continue to monitor the JavaRanch account separately, or ignore it, or delete it - whatever you find most expedient. This way people can reach you as long as no one abuses the system.
(2) The above system is what I do for the vast majority of other sites on the net that require some sort of e-mail. I don't create a separate account for each one; I just have a small number of "sacrificial" e-mail addresses I use for such purposes until they become overloaded. BUT - I've never bothered doing this with JavaRanch; it's always had my primary e-mail address posted. I don't believe I've ever received any junk e-mail to that address as a result of JavaRanch (though I may be tempting fate to say so publicly ). I get a surprisingly small number of personal e-mails directed at me since I'm a moderator/administrator/frequent poster, but no mass-mailed junk. It's never been an issue.
So - posting here is already quite safe, and with simple precautions you can make it completely safe. Fair enough?

[This message has been edited by Jim Yingst (edited September 20, 2000).]

[Anonymous]

Ajit,
What's wrong if not registered? What does it has to do with Professionalism if some one uses name like "Newbie" or "Java Guru" etc. If the name reflects obscenity then it's not fair. THIS IS THE PLACE TO DISCUSS THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY. WHO CARES IF YOU ARE REGISTERED OR NOT !!! I strongly support Paul.

[Paul A]

Looks like the discussion is getting heated!!! (Again, this is no flame directed to anybody)
For the one who wants to talk/discuss with a 'professional'
. Consider this: A 'junkie' asks a genuine question on which he also has done some research... Posts his doubt clearly.
A 'Mr. Professional' (and there are lot of such people out here) who just dump a question a ask for an answer. He did not even bother to compile it and run the program.
I would like to answer 'junkie' rather than 'Mr. Proffessionl'.
. If somebody ask a question, I really don't think he is interesed in answerer's name. All he needs is a good answer.
Paul W, I understand that it is important to you because you are probably running the site or whatever. The reason might well be the ad revenues ( again, just a guess)...and this is perfectly understandable. But please don't give the reason of sounding 'professionalism/unprofessionalism' for use of valid names.
If you force people to do something like you suggested ...ok with me ...( I'm registered) but I have seen lots of discussion groups that have closed down because it required them to register etc.
I really appreciate this site for it's openness and I think this is a very imp. reason that this site is thriving.
I would say, don't kill the freedom...that's the spirit of the net.
You say, "Come on, am I really asking for that much in return?"
I say, "NO. It is perfectly valid and understandable to ask this. Just don't force it and do not give 'not-so-justifiable reason-of-prof/unprof to support it'.
thanks,
Paul.
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[paul wheaton]

I have seen far more alias based services go down the tubes.
You ask me to consider the "junkie" vs. "professional", but the circumstance you provide is just one case. I would say that on average, the opposite is true. Look at the names of all of the moderators and consider their contributions.
"... All he needs is a good answer." Again, one case. You are leaving out all of us that don't agree with you. There have been several questions I have read that I chose not to answer simply because the user was hiding behind an alias. The user has clearly stated that they have no respect for me or my rules, so I have a hard time finding a desire to answer their question.
I wouldn't say I run this site. There are about 20 other people that do that. I do pay the bills. And while I have a few banners to help with the bills, the money outlay for JavaRanch is still bigger than the income from the banners. It seems that you are suggesting that if JavaRanch had more money coming in than going out that I should not be allowed to make decisions, but rather that it should be left to you.
"I'm registered": So. Your account doesn't follow the rules. If we decide to do a lockdown, your account will be locked out.
"Just don't force it": That is why I'm here pleading the case rather than pouring through thousands of accounts and locking them out. From the outset I have asked that people do this voluntarily. But if my requests are ignored, then I will go to the moderators for alternatives. If no alternatives can be found, I'll do the lockdown.
"do not give 'not-so-justifiable reason-of-prof/unprof to support it'": I think the key here is that you don't comprehend the value of professionalism. Just because it has no value to you doesn't mean that it has no value to me or to heaps of others.
The quality of the site does not come from people using aliases. It comes from the sherriffs, moderators and ranch hands that have worked hard to make a great community. My part has really only been occasional guidance. I'm not suggesting we take away from the community spirit. I'm suggesting that we add to it, by adding a more human element.
As for Jim's comment about the e-mail addresses: Jim, the other sherriffs and the moderators like people to put a valid e-mail in when they register. This way, if they ever have to e-mail somebody because of a problem, well ... there's the e-mail address! Myself - I don't care about that. There are some cool things you can do with this software if you provide your real e-mail address, but if somebody puts something bogus in, it doesn't bother me.
Through all of this discussion about the name thing, I have yet to see a single shred of why not to do it other than "I want to be more like Neo on the Matrix" (which doesn't convince me). I've put a lot into making a web site follow a certain vision of mine. And one slice of that vision has gone astray. I want to fix that as yet another slice in improving the quality of the ranch.
I've updated the rules for when registering just now to say "For your user name, use a your first name, a space and last name. Obviously fictitious names, or improperly formatted names may be locked out." - I think this states my feelings more clearly than what it read before "Please use your real first name, a space and last name."
I'm asking folks that like the aliases to give my vision a chance. Help me make this a professional community that corporate america respects.

[Ajith Kallambella]

Sorry for jumping in late. Paul, Jim and others have said it all. The bottom line is, for a great learning community this place has been, we are not asking for too much. If it helps to run this place better, in a more efficient way, why not do it?
Well, think about this..would you stop going to your favourite restaurant just because they changed their dress code?
??
Ajith

[Paul A]

I'm sory if I hurt your feelings but I fail to understand how a fictious name which 'looks' professional is better than another fictious name which does not look professional.
I think a White collared criminal is no better than a dacoit!. In fact, a white collared criminal is far more dangerous.
But I agree with your point that this is your site, you pay the bills so you are the boss around here. I, of course, have no say and have no intention not to obey your rules but as this is a discussion group, I gave my views!

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[paul wheaton]

I think the key here is the "I fail to understand". I've done my best to relay my feelings on this. I cannot do more. Feelings and vision are not always easy to pass from one person to another, so I guess that best that can be done is to ask you to accept that I do feel this way, even if you don't currently comprehend how it is possible.
I thank you for your participation in this discussion, and I'm glad to have the opportunity to persuade rather than bringing in the heavy hand.

[Jim Yingst]

OK, I re-edited my last post slightly after seeing Paul Wheaton's response to it. Now of course it looks like Paul's post is addressing things I didn't say - but note that that's my fault, not his.