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[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:
Why Islam is spreading in US and Europe?

Mostly because of immigration.

[omar khan]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:

As I said before, all religions have spread by terrorizing local pupulation. So has Islam.

It is not true.
Christianity, Hinduism, Hebraism and Islam did not spread by terrorizing local population.
They spead mainly because the ideas that spread had some vigour.
Of course history has seen fanaticism but these where shadows.
I repeat the same question again.
Why people do not drop their religious beliefs in the "free world" if religion is just an imposition?
Can you answer this?
I am not saying that religion X is better than religion Y. Of course I have my beliefs but that is not the point.
What I am saying is that the religious message is very important for human progress.
[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: OMAR KHAN ]

[omar khan]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Mostly because of immigration.

Yes.
But not only. There are many converts.

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:

It is not true.
Christianity, Hinduism, Hebraism and Islam did not spread by terrorizing local population.
They spead mainly because the ideas that spread had some vigour.
Of course history has seen fanaticism but these where shadows.

The only religion which (as far as I know) has never been associated with any kind of violence at any time in the history is Buddhism.
I am not sure about Hinduism and Hebraism.
I am pretty sure about Chritianity and Islam that they spreaded whereever the armies went. I am not talking about todays times but about centuries ago. Indian, Indonesian, and African muslims and African christians are local people who were forcibaly converted. Legitimate missionaries were also the cause but mostly it was due to force. I have not heard of any Muslim missionaries.

[Mapraputa Is]

To the contrary, I think that God INVENTED science, and that he knew exactly what he was doing. It is just that WE do not understand all of the science.
For whom did God invent science? For Herself, to use? For us, to (slowly) comprehend what She is using?

[Jason Menard]

I don't believe that God invented science per se. I believe that science is simply a tool used by man in order to describe his universe as he observes it. Naturally this can only be done in reference to our current level of understanding.
To say that something can't exist because science doesn't say it can seems to ignore history. I'm sure there are examples throughout history of things that we thought were scientific certainties, that later on, as our understanding of our universe grew, we learned were wrong.
Stating that you believe something to be true because it has been "scientifically proven" is no better or worse than stating that you believe in something because of your faith or religious beliefs. All science allows is for you to quantify your beliefs in a manner that can't often be done through religion.
Scientific "truths" still require a good bit of faith. We have to have faith that our understanding of a subject is complete enough for us to state it as a scientific certainty. As we have discovered however, our understanding is not often very complete. Recently we are beginning to see evidence, for example, that despite what we have always believed and explained through physics, it may be possible for something to travel faster than the speed of light (there is some debate over this, it's just an example, let's not get into this one now). This indicates that we can really only have a certain level of faith in science.
So what happens when we are forced to rethink some of our scientific "truths"? Well, usually there is much debate and contention (as if it were a religious debate), but eventually we just reshape our thinking to accomodate these new truths. So it seems shortsighted to me to dismiss any religious claims simply because there is no scientific evidence since a) science only speaks to our current level of understanding and b) we know that we don't understand everything.
Religion, being based on faith, is not burdened by scientific proof. That much of it doesn't fit our scientific understanding (which remember is only in relation to man's current understanding of the universe), wouldn't seem to be overly relevant (as science itself requires faith).
Both science and religion share many things. They are both used to reassure us as to our place in the universe as well as to explain the world as we experience it. They are both used to answer some of the deeper questions that humans ask. They both have a reference used to provide answers to these questions, be it the Bible or the Laws of Physics. They both submit to a higher power, be it God or Nature. The Bible was written by men inspired by God. I don't think it would be unfair to state that the various laws of science were discovered by men inspired by Nature.
When it comes down to it, is there really any appreciable difference between science and religion?

[Anonymous]

{
Indian, Indonesian, and African muslims and African christians are local people who were forcibaly converted. Legitimate missionaries were also the cause but mostly it was due to force. I have not heard of any Muslim missionaries.
}
Actually Islam came to Southern India through contact with Arab traders. It was only in some parts of northern India, Pakistan and Afghanistan that Islam spread by the sword.
The Islam which is practiced in India is the mystical,spriritual brand of Islam called Sufism, unlike the Saudi version.It is not at all violent but preaches love.
Iam glad that despite India having the largest number of muslims in the world, not a single one was linked to Al Qaueda.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
For whom did God invent science? For Herself, to use? For us, to (slowly) comprehend what She is using?

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Younes Essouabni ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:
Ravish, My theory is really simple: Belive what is believable.
Religion says: Do no eat pork. Fine. I don't have a problem with that.
So the point is, apply your common sense.

The religion which will not change with time will not survive.
What we see today as religion is not the same what it would have been 1000 yrs ago.
When some religion says that dont eat beef because it gives milk & other necessary thing.
And when some other say that you should not eat pork then there is also reason, if you know that if pork is not cleaned properly then you can have deceases, in meat of other animal chances are less. What I remember right now, tapeworm is spread by pork meat.
Why in other religion it is allowed, it all depends geographic location and era.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:
Omar, where to apply common sense, is also a matter of common sense. Consider this:
Hinduism says: Do not eat beef but you can eat pork.
Islam says: Do not eat pork but you can eat beef.
Christianity says: You can eat both.
Obviously, only one of them can be right. Correct? Which one is it? why? There is no answer.
.....
So, neither science explains it nor religion. Commonsense is the key.

There is answer. As I told beef/cow/bull are/were not eaten by Hindu's coz they used to give lot necessary things needed for life. How can you kill a hen which gives golden egg
Now for pork, they can spread deceases.
Why it is allowed in christian. Some one said that in chritian its not allowed. But if you say it is allowed so .... in that time, in that region it, pork might be the best/easily available meat(I might be wrong..).
But I think that all custom has some theory behind it and they changes with time.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:
I think that Religion and Science are two different domains.
Religion reasoning cannot be applied to science and vice versa.

I disagree you. These are not diffrent domain but they are two sides of same coin.
The problem comes with relegion when *man* tries to drive it.
Relegion depends on geogrphical location, time and lot of other thing. It is as felxible as our body, mind & science.
But we are talking about science & religion. As Jason has said, lot of things in science also not true, its just that at that time they seemed to be true. Same here.
Now I can not get up at 4:00 am and do worship as at that time they used to sleep between 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm, and now I sleep betn 11:00pm - 1:00am.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by OMAR KHAN:

Science is based on emphirical experiments.
Religion is based on faith.

Science : which is proved wrong by another emphirical experiments
Religion: I wont call faith... I will call observation from past.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

The religion which will not change with time will not survive.

People have changed, but Islam did not change. Do you think Islam is dying? Or maybe you can explain to us what have changed in Islam. Since Islam is only based on Holy Coran and Hadith (Life of Prophet Muhamed (SS)) and since the Holy Coran did not changed.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Religion: I wont call faith... I will call observation from past.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
Since Islam is only based on Holy Coran and Hadith (Life of Prophet Muhamed (SS)) and since the Holy Coran did not changed.

Might be my muslim friend who told me that, had not had proper knowledge abt Holy Kuran. AW he told me that there is one master version, and there is another which keep changing with time, even he told me the name for both types of Kuran. This he told me this around 10 yrs back.
AW I can show you the changes, come India, you wont find veiling OR (Burqua), its still here but most of woman are now not using it.
Men follow monogamy....
Women get education...

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:

I mean, what you call faith is based on some observations.

[Tracy Woo]

That's exactly what I said before. Religion is man made and so is bound by man's understanding of the world. As our understanding changes, the religion too should be updated otherwise the outcome would be no different that the talibanistic society of the mid east. They give undue importance to the religion. That does not mean one should not give any importance to the religion but one should understand that religion is not the God's word. It is man's and so should be taken with a grain of salt. Religion is just a guideline, we need to appy our commonsense to use it properly.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:
That's exactly what I said before.....

You are right.
My thinking is that, whatever religion is, it is to give comfort/ease to man/society. If something does not suit you, change as per your requirement.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Ravish Kumar:

Might be my muslim friend who told me that, had not had proper knowledge abt Holy Kuran. AW he told me that there is one master version, and there is another which keep changing with time, even he told me the name for both types of Kuran. This he told me this around 10 yrs back.
AW I can show you the changes, come India, you wont find veiling OR (Burqua), its still here but most of woman are now not using it.
Men follow monogamy....
Women get education...

Fact: There is only one Quran. It has never changed (and never will). Islam has never changed since day one. It is a religion applicable to all times. It is the people who change.
---------------------------------------------
It is crucial to undestanding Islam, to keep separate two things: 1. Islam 2. Today's Muslims
The majority of today's muslims do not truly follow Islam. Hence seeing "Islam" through them
can easily lead us to misunderstand Islam
To be "muslim" means to practise Islam. The name "muslim" inetself is merely a label for a complete way of life with all it's attitudes, behavious etc. But if the majority of people who call/lable themselves "muslims" do not even practise, then they are not or should not be called "muslims"...and if we judge/analyse Islam
by looking at it's poor/eroneous "implementations" of the people
then we are making a big mistake. Want to analyse something...go to the ORIGINAL SPECS..not people's poor understanding of it.
Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. If you don't see tolerance around you, don't blame Islam...blame the people for not following Islam.
Islam teaches kindness - respect and tolerance especially to people of the Book (Christians and Jews) as we all worship God and all faiths are from the same source. If you don't see that around you, don't blame Islam..blame those who don't follow it.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:

Fact: There is only one Quran. It has never changed (and never will). Islam has never changed since day one. It is a religion applicable to all times. It is the people who change.
---------------------------------------------
It is crucial to undestanding Islam, to keep separate two things: 1. Islam 2. Today's Muslims

Whatever you wrote after that eveyone knows that already.
Now, dont you think it is change, that todays Muslim is not able to follow Holy Quran.
Its not his fault.
No one can practice what was 10000 yrs back.
In Mumbai, there is one Muslim family who does not watch TV/Cinema (I saw it in news 4-5 yrs back). As it is against Islam for them.
Isnt it ridiculous? But 99.99% muslim watch TV & enjoy Movie. Aint they Muslim.
Religion depends on society and society changes with time as per its requirement.

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:

If you don't see tolerance around you, don't blame Islam...blame the people for not following Islam.
If you don't see that around you, don't blame Islam..blame those who don't follow it.

May be that is true. But why is it that throughout the history muslims, or people who "say" they practice Islam, have been associated with violence?? Why aren't people who follow other religions are not that violent? Why aren't there Buddhist millitants? Why are unjust laws still followed by so called Islamic countries? Do you mean to say they are not muslims/Islamic?
Well, can you give an example of a country that is truely Islamic??
I don't think you can.

[Thomas Paul]

Tracy, I think a similar argument about violence can be made for Christianity. Although Christianity has grown out of its violence and rarely do you find Christians inciting violence over religion.

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:

Fact: There is only one Quran. It has never changed (and never will). Islam has never changed since day one. It is a religion applicable to all times. It is the people who change.

There is nothing that is applicable for ever. Everything changes. And so should religion. If it doesn't then there will develop an internal contradictory force that will create trouble for the people who follow that religion.
Quran and Bible may not change. Neither is there any need for them to change. What should change is their interpretation. Heck, nobody even knows the exact language they were written in!!! How can you be so sure about what they actually say???

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Tracy, I think a similar argument about violence can be made for Christianity. Although Christianity has grown out of its violence and rarely do you find Christians inciting violence over religion.

That's true. That's what I mean by keeping your religion updated as per the times.

[Tony Alicea]

I don't have much to add except for the fact that I am reading the chapter on Islam on the ACADEMIC book THE WORLD's RELIGIONS by Huston Smith (it was called THE RELIGIONS OF MAN about ten or more years ago).
The Koran, as opposed to the Bible, has not been modified since its origin. In fact that's one thing that Islam comments about the Bible: That the bible has gone trough so many revisions, translations; books have been left out, others ruled in, all BY MAN.
Another thing about the bible, is that it was not "written by God" but by MEN. Who presumably were moved, inspired by God, but still MAN wrote it.
The Koran, in contrast was DICTATED by god to the prophet AS A BOSS DICTATES TO HIS SECRETARY. The words are LITERALLY from God himself and not interpreted by anyone. This is a fundamental difference.
Another difference that caught my attention is that Islam does not believe in "original sin". The closest equivalent is the idea that Man has just forgotten his divine origin and that this can be corrected. Man is inherently GOOD versus damned from the start as in Christianity.
I haven't finished the chapter yet.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:

That's true. That's what I mean by keeping your religion updated as per the times.

Islam is Christianity update, are you still working on christian 1.0???

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
Islam is Christianity update, are you still working on christian 1.0???

More like a Microsoft reworking. Sorry... couldn't resist.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
...
The Koran, in contrast was DICTATED by god to the prophet AS A BOSS DICTATES TO HIS SECRETARY. The words are LITERALLY from God himself and not interpreted by anyone. This is a fundamental difference.
...

I do totally agree, and that is why Muslim will never update their religion. Man's work will never equal God's work.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Mostly because of immigration.

In various European country, there is approximately 2-5 convert per day.And Also well known american scientist (I know that you'll ask for the name, but just don't remember them).
[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Younes Essouabni ]

[Younes Essouabni]

Hi Tracy Woo, don't get hurt but I'm pretty sure that you got no knowledge neither about religion or Islam.

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:

Islam is Christianity update, are you still working on christian 1.0???

So that makes it how old? You propbably don't even remember the name of your great great grand father and you are stuck to a book that nobody even knows what it says.
I am not updating Chritianity. That's the job of (incompetent and self serving) religious leaders. I do not consider myself bound by any religion. I take things that I feel are good from any religion.
I can watch news as well as porn on television. I don't want any religion to make a call on what I should watch. I don't think any prophet will object to watching news (if he knew about such a thing as TV). On the other hand, even a good friend may object to watching porn. That's common sense. I wouldn't let my religion dictate that I should not watch TV at all. That's the updation I am talking about.
And in all probability, I think, not even Islam (in its original form) would have objected to persuing various forms of art etc. which current followers seem to believe.

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
[QB]Hi Tracy Woo, don't get hurt but I'm pretty sure that you got no knowledge neither about religion or Islam.
Despite that I liked your post on "version control" but...
Sorry but it's not for you to say whether someone has knowledge or not. We're all here to learn and exchange ideas...no reason to flaunt what you know, as u surely don't know everything.

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:
Hi Tracy Woo, don't get hurt but I'm pretty sure that you got no knowledge neither about religion or Islam.

I am not hurt because you are right. I do not have any knowledge about Islam other than what I have gathered through news, reports etc. So it is possible that I am wrong. However, you've not contradicted any of my points. I do not have any deep knowledge about any religion because I do not find that necessary. As long as I abide by my conscience, I feel I am ok and as pious as any other religious person.
All I am saying is religion is not God's work and should change according to time. Please tell me, is this statment so wrong???

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
Stating that you believe something to be true because it has been "scientifically proven" is no better or worse than stating that you believe in something because of your faith or religious beliefs. All science allows is for you to quantify your beliefs in a manner that can't often be done through religion.

It happens not often, but sometimes we agree! Science is not a proof, someday science proove something and somedays it just prooves the contrary. People who believes in God keep that fact in mind, and wait that science proove their point (the religious one). That is faith. Faith has never been based on observations, observations are just the contrary of faith

[Tracy Woo]

Originally posted by Younes Essouabni:

In various European country, there is approximately 2-5 convert per day.And Also well known american scientist (I know that you'll ask for the name, but just don't remember them).

Becoming a Muslim from a Christian will not change the person.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:

All I am saying is religion is not God's work and should change according to time. Please tell me, is this statment so wrong???

First, thanx for not being hurted by my last statement. It was not done to hurt anybody, even that anonymous coward.
Second, when I said are you still working on christian 1.0, it was just a joke (I forgot to put a smiley).
But you came to prove my point, it is not because you did not update your religion that it gets old.
And, religion is God work, religion is based on the prophets that God send us. Religion is based on books that those prophets lets us.
Like said Tony Alicea, Coran is Islam base, and Coran is God's word.
Now what you do of your own life is between you and God. If you decide to follow the half of the religion, it is your choice, but Islam won't change for that.
Again, people may have changed but nothing in Islam has changed.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by Tracy Woo:

Becoming a Muslim from a Christian will not change the person.

A good person will stay a good person, whatever his religion. But muslims believes that they must earn their entry to paradise, so they do some acts every day (pray) or every months (Ramadan, Zakat,...), or every weeks,...
A real religious will search the truth in every religion, as he wants to please God. And if he feels that the truth is in other religion, he won't any problem to change his religion.

[omar khan]

Originally posted by Tony Alicea:
I don't have much to add except for the fact that I am reading the chapter on Islam
...
I haven't finished the chapter yet.

Tony, as far as I know what you are studying is correct, I mean what is regarded "orthodox" Islam. Great.
Do you know what was the first work dictated to Mohammad?
Read
It means that by studying one gets nearer to God.

Anonymous, I subscribe to your point of view. I was writing a similar post, but you preceded me...
...and wrote a great post IMHO.

[Younes Essouabni]

Originally posted by <Anonymous>:

Sorry but it's not for you to say whether someone has knowledge or not. We're all here to learn and exchange ideas...no reason to flaunt what you know, as u surely don't know everything.

I surely don't know everything, but as i see someone talking about something he don't know about, I may politely tell him:"You don't know much about the subject, please don't spread false idea". And it don't prevent us from debating and learn from each other.

[Anonymous]

All I am saying is religion is not God's work and should change according to time. Please tell me, is this statment so wrong???[/QB]
yes I would disagree with your statement Tracy.
Religion (according to Islam) is a complete way of life defined by God. I beleive it is God's work. And I would like ot refer to the post by Tony earlier on his readings highlighting some key differences between Islam and Christianity and how there are many "Man made" elemnts/books/teachings in christianity but this is not at all the case with Islam.
As to whether it is applicable to all times or must be updated: First are you familiar, in software land , with completely extensible and scalable design? Platform independant? hehe
What if, just hypothetically speaking, like Tony was reading earlier that the Quran is God's spoken word..In this case the "designer" is not a mere designer..He is creator of the underlying
machine (human being), and everything around it and everything else..He forsees the future and created a system that works for all time. I know you cannot ascribe great design qualities as such to ourselves...but assume the author is not
us??? What if the author is our Creator, adn religion is our manual? Let's not live in imagination land...I will take you on the challenge to name one thing that is inside ISLAM
that is not applicable to life today? But please come up with something from Islam and not from people's own vaired and sometimes wrong practices!!!
Secondly I'm glad you are now distinguishing between Islam and the "practices". And you are right "Islam" is not against pursuing art or even watching TV or embracing technology or anything that will help humans progress.