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no war

 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Leaving aside the fact for a moment that we have been playing with Iraq for the past 12 years, and also leaving aside for a moment that the only reason they are currently showing any level of cooperation is because of the threat of force levied by the US, UK, and Australia, all evidence indicates that the French do not want Hussein removed from Iraq.
I've posted all this before (with links), but to summarize: the French have done everything they can to water down all UN resolutions concerning Iraq, right up to and including the drafting of 1441 the French have been doing their best to hamstring the inspection process, the French are currently undermining the credibility of the threat of force that has made the Iraqis even remotely show interest in compliance, France has undermined the credibility of NATO, France has undermined the credibility of the security council and is on the eve of making it go the way of the League of Nations, France has obstructed the entire UN process vis-a-vis Iraq for 12 years, France has $50 billion in oil contracts, along with other investments, tied up with Iraq, and don't be surprised to hear that France and Germany have been violating sanctions against Iraq. Let's not forget that the French agreed to UN 1441 (and all the previous resolutions), which Iraq is clearly in violation of, and now refuse to follow through with what it calls for. Now please show me what France has done of any substance to help the process.
Aside from blatantly obstructing things, France has chosen this time to try to make a grab a glory long lost and to try to claim the place in the world scene she feels she deserves. Additionally France wants to ensure that if they can't keep force from being unleashed against Iraq, that it will be they who determine when it will happen. Which is of course absurd since we're the ones who are paying to maintain the threat of force and we are the ones who will be doing all the dying. But that's nothing new.
As far as the "not on my lawn" comment, I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about.
[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


Great France has commited dastardly acts,but what about Israel. The US has done its best to water down all resultions concerning Israel over the last 40 years, not only that, it is the only state illegally occupying another country and disenfranchising its people, what about Isreal. Surely we should apply double standards in our arguments. BTW, please no one should lower this argument to issues of antisemitism, we are talking about justice and fairplay here. So please France is surely not the only culprit.
 
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Be aware that "Israel" is one of those magic words that tends to get threads here closed down quickly as people often start yelling at each other very soon after it's mentioned (if they weren't already). So tread carefully...
 
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Originally posted by shay Aluko:
Great France has commited dastardly acts,but what about Israel. The US has done its best to water down all resultions concerning Israel over the last 40 years...


I cut the quote where the facts got to be, shall we say "debateable". This would be relevant if we were talking about Israel, but we are not. We are talking about Iraq. Nobody is currently on the eve of going to war over Israel. If you'd like to discuss Israel, I personally have no problem with it, but a) it's off-topic in this thread and should be discussed elsewhere, and b) as Jim stated, it tends to get threads closed-down.
Surely though, we can debate the facts without having to draw thin comparisons between unrelated situations such as Israel, North Korea, or whatever else people want to use to try to divert the issue. The world is not a fair place, apples are not oranges, and every situation does not get treated the same. I don't dispute that the US takes up for Israel, but we also don't pretend we're impartial. But that's as much as I'm going to go into Israel in this thread.
Now, somebody stated that France was trying to be helpful to the process, I indicated that this wasn't the case and gave supporting statements. If you want to refute that, we can go from there.

BTW, please no one should lower this argument to issues of antisemitism, we are talking about justice and fairplay here.


France? Anti-semitism? Why would that come up? But who says we are talking about "justice and fairplay"? I'm certainly not. I don't think the situation is a game and whether or not anybody feels Iraq is being treated fairly is irrelevant. Iraq has rules they agreed to abide by, and the UN Security Council has rules they agreed to enforce. That is what is relevant, imho.
If Iraq decides they no longer want to play by the rules (not that they ever were), then the UN has as its duty the obligation to enforce those rules and apply the consequences called for in UN resolutions. If the UN fails to live up to this responsibility, then they can go the way of the dinosaur, and nations who feel it is in their national security interests will take charge of the situation.
 
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All war mongers say that Resolution 1441 was the final offer to Iraq. If they do not comply they will face serious consequences. Fine if this means war then so be it. The US will enforce the war and win.
After this war will the US then enforce the resoulutions that the UN has passed on Israel since 1948 to comply with those resolutions.
Just think for a moment, if after the war on Iraq, the US just sits on it ass and never cares about the Other Middle Eastern problem namely Israel/Palestine.
Why are Resolutions that are passed on Isarel never enforced.
Will Colin Powell make the same efforts to his European firends to force Israel to give its occupation of land and return to 1967 or even 1974 borders?
I have heard it argued in this group that European terroists in the 70's and 80's were Idealist but the terrorist toady are different?
Please get real a terroist is a terroist. In the 70's the IRA was funded in amajor way from the US and lets not pretend about this fact.
Peace is possible when we begin to realize that humans cannot be confined for ever.
A good example of this is the Sir Lanka/Tamil tiger peace accord. Both have realized that the way forward is to comprise a little and respect each other. The US I am afraid does not respect people who may choose to live differently. By this I mean a different religion and type of government.
It has taken the western countries almost 1700 years to get to the level of demoracy we have toady. DO youtnik that you can go in and impose Jeffersonian Style Demoracy in countries that are still 500 years behind in terms of Demoracy?
Just a few thoughts
Thanks
Jawahar :roll:
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Jawahar Rajan:
All war mongers say that Resolution 1441 was the final offer to Iraq.


If by "all war mongers" you mean "the UN Security Council", then yes, you are correct.

From United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441:
2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the council


[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I don't think anybody has ever said Iraq is a 9/11 thing. It is a "terror" thing though. Back when Bush made his speech declaring war on international terrorism, he was very careful to mention that it was not against just Al-Qaeda. Iraq does have links to international terrorism, that is a fact. Whether or not you choose to believe that they have links specifically with al-Qaueda would depend I guess, but it doesn't really matter.


Thank you, Jason.
Let's face it the President of the US sort of HAS to address the fact that the twin towers just got reduced to rubble AND the pentagon was attacked.
Here's why I think Bush is looking to dismantle Saddam's regime:
We already know that members of the various Islamic terrorist groups form new groups/alliances for specific acts then dissolve the said group/alliance. This leaves a tough trail and makes it hard for others to track. Sometimes they don't even bother claiming the act.
They are extremely sophisticated and well-planned.
IMHO, I say the folks that make it past suicide-bomber are of an unusually high level of ruthlessness combined with a higher than average intelligence. (Ya gotta give the devil his due.)
Iraq is a start, I wouldn't doubt if they eventually go for Suadi Arabia, Syria & Lebonan, Iran. Together they have a few bin Ladens in there. We pulled out of Lebanon, after the Marine barracks got blown up, cause it was decided it wasn't our fight. But this is now our fight.
Also think of this:
Would you want to be President of the US during the next attack and have to look back and say, "uhhh Sorry, USA. I did nothing... And we just got hit again..."
Who would ever trust that President??
 
John Dunn
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Does anyone think the French would act the way they do now if the Eiffel Tower was demolished AND the French defense department was hit with two planes??
Like it or not, I'll admit the French did help the US get its independence. (They didn't think we'd really succeed though, but I don't know if we can hold that against them.) They also played a HUGE, HUGE role in helping advance the plight of African Americans by giving the African American WWI vets a real taste of equality that they never had back in the US. (Those returning vets played a major role in changing the course of the African American community back in the States.) And In fairness, the French lost their share of soldiers in both World Wars. So they are not COMPLETELY bad...
I just think they'd be better off convincing Saddam to step down. I'm not sure what they really are trying to accomplish this time around.
I'm not sure if they will truly benefit with Saddam in power, in the long run.
 
John Dunn
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INTERESTING link on Chirac and Iraq, regarding the Iraqi Nuclear plant
I never knew this, so I thought maybe its a joke picture. I found it on Drudgereport.com. When I checked "Chirac + Osirak" in google, tons of stuff comes up.
I don't know what to say...
 
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To,
Head of UM,
Sir,
I am Iraw.
I will request UM to inspect USB as it has tons of Weapons of Mass Destruction and he has used it twice.
USB is threatning us from past 12 yrs for no reason.
Whenever there is any home problem in USB, it bashes us for no reason and threatend us of war.
No one except USB knows that I have WMD. Pobell has said, he has proof also. I dont say that I dont have WMD. I might and might not. But if I have WMD then for the security reason as from last 12 yrs I have been told that I will be attacked sooner or later.
I have been bombed when there was hearing of Klinton, for no reason. I have been bombed when there were election in USB. I have been bombed whenever Uncle San thought that he needs to distract its nephews & nieces from home problems.
So I request UM to inspect USB and fuse all WMD acquired by USB. I know it will take time as I herad that all WMD USB has, can destroy earth 4-5 times. So fusing that WMD will take some time. But as I trust UM, I can wait till WMDs are destroyed by UM inspector.
I have no proof accept Uncle Sam's own declaration that it has WMD.
I am being ruled by a man called Sabbam Hasina.
I and my citizens have no problem with Sabbam Hasina. I have not heard till now that my citizens have any problem with their ruler.
I have lot of oil resources.
I have oil which currently is not being traded/exported to USB but it does not mean that USB does not want to control my oil.
Kindly accept my request to inspect USB and their allied nations and if any WMD is found then for the sake of earth and peace destroy them.
Truly yours
Iraw
 
mister krabs
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Originally posted by Jawahar Rajan:
I have heard it argued in this group that European terroists in the 70's and 80's were Idealist but the terrorist toady are different?

If you heard that argued I would get my eyes checked. No one hear has ever said that. A murderer is a murderer no matter what political "ideal" they hide behind.
 
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A murderer is a murderer no matter what political "ideal" they hide behind.


What if some blood-thirsty maniac assasinated Adolf Hitler in the most brutal manner in 1937, driven by the ideology of people diversity and equality as a neccessary attribute for progress? Whould that fellow be a hypocrite, a murderer, or a saint? Perhaps all of the above, right?
How about this one: in Genesis, God flooded the Earth and exterminated almost all mankind after he got disgusted with it. Is God a mass murderer, a schizophrenic, or just God?

Eugene.
[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Eugene Kononov ]
 
Thomas Paul
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How about this one: in Genesis, God flooded the Earth and exterminated almost all mankind after he got disgusted with it. Is God a mass murderer, a schizophrenic, or just God?
I don't think humans are capable of understanding God. Anyway, since life on Earth is not the end (assuming there is a God) then God doesn't really kill anyone does He, since all He is doing is disposing of their body. If God came down and took you to Paradise, to others it might look like God killed you but your own experience would be quite different, wouldn't it?
[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
John Smith
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If God came down and took you to Paradise, to others it might look like God killed you but your own experience would be quite different, wouldn't it?


Yeah, I guess so. But since God was really pissed in Genesis, all those poor bastards that he exterminated were likely taken to Hell, not Paradise. And all of that because the people built a tower so high that God perceived as surpassing Him, remember? I am not sure if there is an equivalent of that in Koran, but if there is, then no wonder OBL feels justified.
Eugene.
 
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Would you all mind keeping this thread strictly to 'war/no war' :roll: ?.
You can continue the discussion about moral/ethics/etc and all those semi-existent abstract stuff in that absolutes (yeah! whatever that is supposed to mean) thread that our secret agents have managed to adultrate with war related stories that date back all the way to 1600 Shhh! one of the goals of our top-secret 'Operation Back-dating' is to take the absolutes thread all the way back to the wars fought by Romans, and the Greeks, till we go so back that they start discussing about how pre-homosapiens semi-human tribes fought for their rights for a piece of that hunted animal till they realize that all that absolute stuff is ultimately based on some frame of reference relative to the eternal time
ok, back to war! continue the discussion
 
Thomas Paul
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Anybody see a good movie lately?
 
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Back on topic:
Several people are traveling from Europe and Africa right now to Bagdad; they are going to be human shields there. My sympathy is with those brave people.
There's way more to the world than just the USA. But the USA doesn't realize because they want to watch the film at eleven, if their short attention span allows it ...
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Anybody see a good movie lately?


The best movie of the year is yet to be released! They are working on it - just some technical glitches from the Europe. That's all.
 
John Smith
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Anybody see a good movie lately?


I am tired to discuss the war, too. I suggest we switch to partial birth abortions, Java reflection features, and absolutes.
Eugene.
 
Melvin Menezes
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Originally posted by Jos Horsmeier:
Back on topic: ...


Jos, buddy, if you expect the pro-war guys to reply to your posts, why not keep the discussions to the facts? this one is fine:
JH: Several people are traveling from Europe and Africa right now to Bagdad; they are going to be human shields there. My sympathy is with those brave people.
But, this type won't fetch you any (good) answer.
There's way more to the world than just the USA. But the USA doesn't realize because they want to watch the film at eleven, if their short attention span allows it
Buddy, we'll loose this thread without even fighting. Let's celebrate our victory over the 'absolutes'
P.S. Eugene you can start another threads if you like. Why mess with this one?
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Melvin Menezes:
Jos, buddy, if you expect the pro-war guys to reply to your posts, why not keep the discussions to the facts? this one is fine:
JH: Several people are traveling from Europe and Africa right now to Bagdad; they are going to be human shields there. My sympathy is with those brave people.
But, this type won't fetch you any (good) answer.
There's way more to the world than just the USA. But the USA doesn't realize because they want to watch the film at eleven, if their short attention span allows it
Buddy, we'll loose this thread without even fighting. Let's celebrate our victory over the 'absolutes'


No, I keep on emphasizing that a war is worse than terrible, and all those war-horny folks around here simply don't realize the devastation, the misery it's going to cause. In Dutch we have a saying: 'it's far from my bed', and that's exactly what this war is all about: redneck cowboy talk all around because it's far from their beds while at the mean time the USA keep on 'justifying' (mind the quotes again) their actions because of the 9/11 disaster, because that was 'close to their beds'?
The USA are mixing up causes and pure silly hate against something they vaguely know about. If the USA ignores the UN conclusions, they simply seggregate themselves from the rest of the world. And rightly so, they don't deserve to be part of a global community with an attitude (they've demonstrated before) like that.
Ok, now try to insult me again.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:
I am tired to discuss the war, too. I suggest we switch to partial birth abortions, Java reflection features, and absolutes.


Did this (upcoming) war exceed your attention span? Feeling bored just like every average American? Why not take up a hobby: 'investigate what the world is all about'?
Jeezis.
 
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Originally posted by Jos Horsmeier:
Back on topic:
Several people are traveling from Europe and Africa right now to Bagdad; they are going to be human shields there. My sympathy is with those brave people.


The New York Times has a story today:
Human Shields, No R�sum� Needed
 
Jason Menard
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I think for the most part everybody has been nice and put up with a fair amount of unwarrented abuse. At a certain point though, very often through the actions of a single person, a topic just screams "close me", so I figure I might as well do what I can towards that effort.

Originally posted by Jos Horsmeier:
No, I keep on emphasizing that a war is worse than terrible, and all those war-horny folks around here simply don't realize the devastation, the misery it's going to cause.


You are 43, and you were a draft dodger, so unless you've left something out of your resume, any commentary on war you have to make is pure speculation. As hard as this may be for you to wrap your mind around, there are people who live in oppression and yearn for freedom. These people are willing to make the sacrafices that may be necessary to achieve that freedom. These liberated people are as greatful towards their liberators (well most are greatful, the rest live in ...) as they are disdainful towards those who would seek to keep them oppressed, such as those who would like to keep their oppressor in power.
"War-horny"? What's that, some kind of Amsterdam strip club? These constant attacks and mischaracterizations are tiresome. You don't see anyone on the other side reffering to anyone as limp-wristed jelly-spined sympathizers, do you? That would just be wrong.

In Dutch we have a saying: 'it's far from my bed'


In the US we also have a saying... on second thought maybe I'd better not.
People have been responding to your constant rantings with measured facts, none of which you've chosen to address. But as I'm a glutton for punishment...

The USA are mixing up causes and pure silly hate against something they vaguely know about.


There's no hate over here afaik. Quite the opposite. I am seeing quite the demonstration of sympathy for those who have been murdered and oppressed under the Hussein regime. As far as something we "vaguely know about", let me ask you this... Have you ever been over there? How do you know what you are talking about? I've seen no evidence that you have clue-one about the situation.

If the USA ignores the UN conclusions, they simply seggregate themselves from the rest of the world.


Have you read any of the UN resolutions? It is the UN itself who is not paying attention to its own resolutions. But as always, we will look out for ourselves. History has shown that the UN cannot deal with crisis, and that many in Europe will not act to defend themselves unless they feel the blade at their throat. What reason would we possibly have for putting our security in the hands of either of those groups?

And rightly so, they don't deserve to be part of a global community with an attitude (they've demonstrated before) like that.


And I might add that if I were of a different mind I might conclude that some do not deserve the peace and security we have given them since the 1940's, and maybe instead of complaining they should just thank us and go on about their business. But that's not me and I can't picture myself saying that.
But if you want a serious adult conversation, many here including myself would be happy to engage you. Myself, and others from what I've gathered, appreciate facts and civil discussion. Your highly misplaced superiority complex certainly isn't helping things. So are you looking for people to actually hold a discussion with, or are you just seeking targets for your pent-up rage and frustration? If the latter is the case, maybe you should head to Amsterdam and get things taken care of.
[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
John Smith
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Feeling bored just like every average American? Why not take up a hobby: 'investigate what the world is all about'?


Oh, I am too old for this shit. The stinkin' world is all about me. And my hobby is to sit on my porch, drink my beer, and talk to my ol' buddies about how pompous those average Europeans are.
Eugene.
 
Thomas Paul
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Just one point about us Americans going to war alone... why is it that the majority of European countries are actually on our side?
[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]
 
John Dunn
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Hate to point this out, but if this thread seems to go off on a tangent, some of the folks other than Jos are to blame for that. I've tried to take ignore it and point in a different direction. You should ask yourselves why you are repeatedly responding to the name-calling and the offensive emails. If it helps, I usually skip to the end as soon as it gets really ridiculous or mean.
There's more than one way to skin a cat...
 
Mapraputa Is
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Originally posted by Melvin Menezes:
Buddy, we'll loose this thread without even fighting. Let's celebrate our victory over the 'absolutes'


:roll:
You would never win if not Jim, who closed my blog...
That's Ok, I'll start a new one. Just need to think about some vague title...
As for threads going off on a tangent, it almost always happens for long enough threads. But this one should be kept focused, I agree.
 
Thomas Paul
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
As for threads going off on a tangent, it almost always happens for long enough threads. But this one should be kept focused, I agree.


I think threads have a natural evolution and thread drift is common and not always bad. Old boring threads are removed from the thread pool and replaced by new threads. So do you think thread pooling is a good idea for moderate sized applications?
 
Jim Yingst
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You would never win if not Jim, who closed my blog...
Sorry - just call me "blog-buster".
So do you think thread pooling is a good idea for moderate sized applications?
 
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Here are may thoughts:
1. There won't be any war. This whole excercise of chest thumping by US is to divert peoples' attention from the bad economy.
2. If war does happen, Iraqi's will probably be happy to get rid of Saddam but terrorism will increase. This is because the nuts in other Islamic countries will take the fall of Saddam as an attack on Muslims even though Iraqis are ok with it. The mullahs of these countries are just waiting for a cause...any cause...to instigate people into terrorism. And an attck on Iraq will only make it easy for them to brain wash the youngsters.
Just think about it, it is not the people in Saudi Arabia or Egypt who are in bad shape due to Saddam. They have not suffered anything due to Saddam, so why will they be happy if he goes down??? For them, he is a hero. They have no idea about the state of Iraqis and neither do they care.
And I think the Bush team knows this, and that's why they'll not go to war. By this war rhetoric, they are basically trying to satisfy the americans who want action and by actually not going to war, they are doing the right thing for reducing the risk of more terror attacks and preventing the economy from further damage.
 
Thomas Paul
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I think the one disagreement I have with your theory is that the religious Moslems will be upset by Sadaam falling. Truthfully, Sadaam is a completely secular ruler and his fall will allow them to have greater power in Iraq. A democratically elected government will give some power to Moslem religious leaders. The hard part will be to convince the Moslem world that we wish to remove Sadaam, not Islam.
 
Melvin Menezes
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Eugene Kononov: Oh, I am too old for this shit. The stinkin' world is all about me. And my hobby is to sit on my porch, drink my beer, and talk to my ol' buddies about how pompous those average Europeans are.
Yeah, but that does not make a strong case for war.
John Dunn: Hate to point this out, but if this thread seems to go off on a tangent, some of the folks other than Jos are to blame for that. There's more than one way to skin a cat...

Map: You would never win if not Jim, who closed my blog...
Geee, she's back!
Thomas Paul: Just one point about us Americans going to war alone... why is it that the majority of European countries are actually on our side?
Well, only a few are strongly on US side and only a few are strongly on the opposite side. For many others, IMHO, they probably did not really care. It's more like 'why piss off Uncle Sam'? Because if they really did care about this whole thing, they would have raised this issue long time back and would not have waited for Bush to initiate it. For that matter, one wonders if Tony Blair was so worried about the plight of the iraqi people, why did he not give the big dossier on saddam's torture cells before 9/11, that he gave just a few months back? In other words, why do those europeans that support US wait for the Bush to initiate it?
We all saw the case of the great ally, Turkey. US fought for Turkey's protection in NATO, and when time came for the support in the war, its demand increased from $26 billions to $30 billlions. So much for supporting a JUST war !!! People are same everywhere. 'Why piss off Uncle Sam when he is gonna give me all the dollars? let's just shut up an stand by him'

Thomas Paul: I think threads have a natural evolution and thread drift is common and not always bad. Old boring threads are removed from the thread pool and replaced by new threads. So do you think thread pooling is a good idea for moderate sized applications?
Yeah, so how about thinking about some realistic-case scenario that is acceptable morally and economically for a moderate sized war?
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I think the one disagreement I have with your theory is that the religious Moslems will be upset by Sadaam falling. Truthfully, Sadaam is a completely secular ruler and his fall will allow them to have greater power in Iraq.


They'll be upset or not, I don't know. But they'll definitely get a very potent weapon to trigger lot of young people into wrong direction. Remember that you people (20-30) always look up to public figures for directions. They themselves are just drones remotely controled by the mullahs. That's the problem. Rational thinking is not an option to them.
And in this case, these mullahs are not very educated either..they might be intelligent but not educated. So for them, they have no clue whether Saddam was secular or not. He was a muslim leader. That's it.
Further, they are not seeking power in Iraq. In fact, they are not seeking power at all, they already have it in their countries. It is not power struggle. It is a personality disorder. I believe Islamic countries are going through some sort of identity crisis. They are not able to find a respectful place for themselves in the society.


The hard part will be to convince the Moslem world that we wish to remove Sadaam, not Islam.


But Saddam == Islam!!! You see what I am saying?
 
John Smith
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But Saddam == Islam!!! You see what I am saying?


Yeah, and Clinton == Christianity. You see that it desn't even compile?
Eugene.
 
Pakka Desi
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Originally posted by Eugene Kononov:

Yeah, and Clinton == Christianity. You see that it desn't even compile?
Eugene.


 
Jim Yingst
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But Saddam == Islam!!! You see what I am saying?
I believe what Eugene was telling you is that no, some (and probably most) of us don't see what you're saying here. Taken literally, it's obviously false; interpreted more loosely, several different interpretations are possible. Perhaps you should elaborate.
 
Pakka Desi
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Ok, I should have been clear. It was a reponse to what Thomas had said, "The hard part will be to convince the Moslem world that we wish to remove Sadaam, not Islam.".
They key part here was "the Moslem world". And that's why I said, "But Saddam == Islam". For the mulsim world. It does not matter what the opinion is in the west about Saddam==Islam. I know, it is not so. But for the islamic world, they equate attack on Saddam (or any muslim leadership, as they did with Taliban) as attack on Islam. So convincing them is next to impossible.
I hope it is clear now.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Pakka Desi:
Here are may thoughts:..


I wish I could see you ....
 
shay Aluko
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
You are 43, and you were a draft dodger, so unless you've left something out of your resume, any commentary on war you have to make is pure speculation. As hard as this may be for you to wrap your mind around, there are people who live in oppression and yearn for freedom. These people are willing to make the sacrafices that may be necessary to achieve that freedom. These liberated people are as greatful towards their liberators (well most are greatful, the rest live in ...) as they are disdainful towards those who would seek to keep them oppressed, such as those who would like to keep their oppressor in power.


The statement above is so childish. You lower the force and validity of your arguments about going to war by attacking someone on the basis of whether the person is performed military service or not. Even we do agree to humor you, what you mean is that by extension, anyone who comments on war and is a "draft dodger" should have his arguments dismissed as pure speculation. Now lets see, one our favourite conservative commentators Rush Limbaugh avoided the war because he had a boil on his ass. A lot of high ranking people in this administration found convenient excuses to avoid the war. If you want the truth why don't you check out the following link: http://www.awolbush.com/-- I think you should do more research before making blanket decalarations about the validity of people's arguments. My conclusion, try again, next time be smarter about what you say.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by shay Aluko:
The statement above is so childish. You lower the force and validity of your arguments about going to war by attacking someone on the basis of whether the person is performed military service or not.


You missed the point. He was sermonizing and pointing out how those of us who don't share his opinion couldn't possibly comprehend "the devastation, the misery it's going to cause". I am merely pointing out that since he is too young to have lived through WW2, and since he was a draft dodger he most likely hasn't seen any other wars, that I doubt he is in any better position than anyone else here to state what some of us may or may not "realize".
 
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