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India Election 2004

 
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Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
see so many indians are migrating, migrated to other countries. NRI s contributed, contributing a lot to indian economy. These countries can always shut their doors to indians because of security reasons . How can they trust us. rt now you not trusting Sonia saying that she is an italin. So these countries can say the same thing to indians or can even ask them to leave rt? Hope you got my point?


Wrong comparison! Why this comparison it with Indian migrating to other countries.?
Compare it with Indian becoming PM or President of some other country.
 
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Compare it with Indian becoming PM or President of some other country.


Fiji, Trinidad & Mauritius had people of Indian Origin as head of state many times. I am sure there are many other countries around the world where people of Indian origin have been in similar offices.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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That policy of theirs is wrong, IMHO, and I am very confident that they will change, sooner or later!


California Governer wants the rule to be changed I guess. He is from Austria, right? :roll:
 
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Originally posted by Ashok Mash:

Fiji, Trinidad & Mauritius had people of Indian Origin as head of state many times. I am sure there are many other countries around the world where people of Indian origin have been in similar offices.


All of them were not born in India.
 
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Originally posted by Rashmi Tambe:
[b] if anybody irrespective of origin can become an army chief...


Army post is not filled by diplomatic process. rt ??
So if someone, till we dont change our constitution, with Indain nationality, let him/her be foreigner, become PM and if s/he does not perform well; s/he will not be choosen again. rt ??
But if you think that in 5 yrs, that person can sell whole India then there are Govt agancies(Like CBI etc.) to control it. rt ??
Even if you feel, can file a PL against any wrong doing by PM or that against any one.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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Guys,
Time for exit polls
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/628186.cms
Good night.
 
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Originally posted by sunitha raghu:
see so many indians are migrating, migrated to other countries. NRI s contributed, contributing a lot to indian economy. These countries can always shut their doors to indians because of security reasons . How can they trust us. rt now you not trusting Sonia saying that she is an italin. So these countries can say the same thing to indians or can even ask them to leave rt? Hope you got my point?


Are the Indians contesting for Presidencial or PM posts over there in those countries? Or Sonia is looking for Software job in India??? Sorry I didn't get your point..
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
Can any person of foreign become US President?
No.


But in Itlay, if you have citizenship you can become PM
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Ashok Mash:
My point again is, as long as the selection of the right candidate is through an extensive process like that of our election system, or something similar, only the extremely trustworthy, deserving person would ever reach there (others would just get filtered away in the process, like Sonia Gandhi for eg.!), but if a person survives the tests, wins publics approval (that says it all, eligible, capable etc) he or she should not be denied the position just because he or she is not of Indian origin. If he or she was to be discriminated against, that�s racist, protectionist and extremely unfair and such a system is turning their back towards progress.
Peace! [/QB]


I agree with your point. As long as the person proves their loyalty to the nation, he can take any post. But how will we include the loyalty clause in our constitution? and how are we going to gauge the loyalty of a person? It is a very tricky situation.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
All of them were not born in India.


Hold on ..
In Fiji, last PM (if I am not wrong then his name was Mahendra... something)was born in Haryana, before militry took control ....
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Rashmi Tambe:

there is difference between language recognised by constitution and official national language! If u dont know ur national language, and still say that its perfectly all right...then i am very sorry...i have no words to defend that...
The problem lies in ur thinking process, which can not be changed. for such an opinion, its hard to fight cause its like banging ur head on wall...


Sorry to say this buddy.. This type of mentality brought our country to the brick of destruction in the mid 60's. So, are you saying that to be an Indian, one should learn Hindi? Comparing Japan and India is comparing apple and orange. Japan, AFAIK, is a monolithic country. India is not. India is vast and very diverse country. If anyone want to learn Hindi, Bengali or Tamil, they are free to learn at their own will. Forcing something on other part of country will invite trouble.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

Hold on ..
In Fiji, last PM (if I am not wrong then his name was Mahendra... something)was born in Haryana, before militry took control ....


He born in Fiji. His ancestors were from Haryana.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
He born in Fiji. His ancestors were from Haryana.


I just checked, you are right.
AW but if you cant blame Sonia for contesting the election. If you dont want foreigner to become PM then change the constitution. If something is legal under constitution then it should not be used as election propaganda.
I think a noble foreigner with Indian citizensip is better than corrupt/criminal Indian politician. And in corruption all are same.
Do we need a another new party ??
But still I would like our constitution to be changed to allow only by birth Indians to contest election.
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
[QB]
Comparing Japan and India is comparing apple and orange. Japan, AFAIK, is a monolithic country. India is not. [QB]


More like comparing apples and jackfruits! Thank you Sankar, exactly my point!
Estimating an individual�s loyalty to a country or an institution is quite tricky indeed! But lets not underestimate our election system, and power of ballot in checking that loyalty � just as in the examples above, Sonia Gandhi is having a tough time convincing the country that she has done enough to deserve important role in India�s future (lets ignore Congress and elements of them that�s favouring Sonia because she is from the Gandhi family etc) and if it were someone as credible as Mother Teresa who was contesting for a position, no one would dare talk about their country of origin, because of their respect for the person!
However, my point is, it would be terribly wrong if we were to deny the right person senior offices just because they are of non-Indian orign. That�s all!
 
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

Wrong comparison! Why this comparison it with Indian migrating to other countries.?
Compare it with Indian becoming PM or President of some other country.


If I am not mistaken, ex-president of Fiji, some Jagannath, was of Indian origin. What do you have to say about that? And some Indian immigrant did become the premiere of British Columbia province of Canada. What about that? Would you be ok if Sonia became CM of UP or would you like to say that that Indian immigrant (can't remember the darn name) should have never been made the premiere of BC, Canada?
What's more important? The ethnicity of an individual or what he/she offers to the country? Although I have my doubts as to what she or any Indian politicians (including current PM) can offer.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by R K Singh:
[QB]
AW but if you cant blame Sonia for contesting the election. If you dont want foreigner to become PM then change the constitution. If something is legal under constitution then it should not be used as election propaganda.


I hope when you say "you", you are talking about BJP here. FYI, I am not a BJP mouthpiece.. Why BJP didn't change the constitution? You may ask.. The answer is, they will never change it and they will love to see Sonia as the head of Congress. After all, they are also politicians, right? Why would they choose to lose the advantage they hold right now?
I am not blaming Soniaji for contesting the election. But, I am mad at Congresswalas for choosing Sonia and projecting here as the PM candidate for their own benefits. Do you think she can be trusted to lead this country?
It is up to you to choose a lesser evil...
 
Pradeep bhatt
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

But in Itlay, if you have citizenship you can become PM


Italian will never allow Indians to contest elections.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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Originally posted by Falana Dhimkana:

If I am not mistaken, ex-president of Fiji, some Jagannath, was of Indian origin. What do you have to say about that? And some Indian immigrant did become the premiere of British Columbia province of Canada. What about that? Would you be ok if Sonia became CM of UP or would you like to say that that Indian immigrant (can't remember the darn name) should have never been made the premiere of BC, Canada?
What's more important? The ethnicity of an individual or what he/she offers to the country? Although I have my doubts as to what she or any Indian politicians (including current PM) can offer.



They were not born in India. A country like India which was ruled by foreign countries should have laws to ban PFO to hold top posts.
:roll:
[ April 20, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]
 
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I know a few young talented people in other countries who want to get into politics one day. What about India? Do the educated and talented youth of India want to get involved? Or will it just go on like this full of old lazy but money making politicians? Most of us just want to bury ourselves in our work. Our involvement in Politics is just commenting on how incapable the politicians are. Do any of us want to make a difference?
[ April 20, 2004: Message edited by: Shalu Ban ]
 
Pradeep bhatt
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shalu
I will vote for you.
 
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Originally posted by Shalu Ban:
Or will it just go on like this full of old lazy but money making politicians?


Don't seperate politicians and the other people, No goverment employees want to do ugly things unless people go and ask for their ineligible favours (example university seats, land quota approval, certificates etc.,), it is people you are giving money to the politicians and they are not taking it by themselves from reserve.

Originally posted by Shalu Ban:
Do any of us want to make a difference?


First we can take try to be good by ourselves (in the sense being loyal and straight forward)and make our surroundings good.
AW BAN i'm not pointing you anything, its just my view in general.
 
Falana Dhimkana
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:


They were not born in India. A country like India which was ruled by foreign countries should have laws to ban PFO to hold top posts.
:roll:
[ April 20, 2004: Message edited by: Pradeep Bhat ]


The premiere of British Columbia was born in some village in Punjab. Current California governor was born in Austria. So by this logic are you ok with Sonia becoming the CM of UP?
Once again what's more important where you were born or what you are capable of doing? BTW, I am not saying Sonia is capable of doing anything for the country.
 
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Can someone substantively (and objectively) sum up the distinguishing features of the candidates? And please don't say so-and-so is an idiot.
M
 
Ashok Mash
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:
..the distinguishing features of the candidates?


Which ones? There are more than <approx> 3000 </approx> of them contesting for 543 parliamentary constituencies!
 
Max Habibi
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Originally posted by Ashok Mash:

Which ones? There are more than <approx> 3000 </approx> of them contesting for 543 parliamentary constituencies!


Oh hell, shows you how much I know. How about the distinguishing features of the major parties?
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:
Oh hell, shows you how much I know. How about the distinguishing features of the major parties?


BJP :- Capatilism + socilism + [unkind description removed by M Habibi]
Congress :- Secular + more Socialist, less capatilist
Janta Dal(I dont think its in competition but still) :- Socialist (influenced by communism)
But this distinction is at very high level. Actually more or less all parties are same. It just depend on the "election wave".
In 1985 wave was for Congress, in 1990 wave was for Janta Dal, and this time its BJP wave.
India is running on waves
[ April 21, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]
 
Max Habibi
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Originally posted by R K Singh:

BJP :- Capatilism + socilism + [unkind description removed by M Habibi]
Congress :- Secular + more Socialist, less capatilist
Janta Dal(I dont think its in competition but still) :- Socialist (influenced by communism)
But this distinction is at very high level. Actually more or less all parties are same. It just depend on the "election wave".
In 1985 wave was for Congress, in 1990 wave was for Janta Dal, and this time its BJP wave.
India is running on waves
[ April 21, 2004: Message edited by: Max Habibi ]


1. I removed what I considered an unkind description in your analysis of BJP, just because I'd don't want BJP supporters grumbling...as a matter of fact, I don't want anyone grumbling, so please don't grumble
2. Interesting breakdown. Am I to understand that India has no major religious party?
M
 
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:

1. I removed what I considered an unkind description in your analysis of BJP, just because I'd don't want BJP supporters grumbling...as a matter of fact, I don't want anyone grumbling, so please don't grumble


3 pages earlier, same thread:

Originally posted by R K Singh:

FYI : If I vote then I vote to BJP.


Sorry for kicking in, but you both seem to have astonishingly different views about "acceptable level of grumbling about political parties".
Ravish declared himself possible BJP voter.
was not able to resist.
[ April 21, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
Max Habibi
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:

Ravish declared himself possible BJP voter.
was not able to resist.
[ April 21, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]



That doesn't mean that some other BP voter won't take offense, at which point I might be forced to moderate this thread, which is something I really don't want to do.
Maybe I made a mistake in asking.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Max Habibi:

Oh hell, shows you how much I know. How about the distinguishing features of the major parties?


At present, there are 2 major fronts.. one is lead by BJP (Bharathiya Janatha Party) and another one lead by Congress. BJP is a nationalistic party and Congress is a secular party (or that is what both parties claim about themself). BJP started as a religious party and slowly drifted away from it's original agenta. OK, if I add anything more about them will invite trouble. So, I will stop here..
After the election, there could be a possiblity that another coalition may be created by the communists, aligning themself with the regional parties if they get enough seats in the Parliment.
BJP has more capitalist and less socialist. Congress, traditionally, is a socialist party, but it has some good capitalist followers. BJP is lead by Atal Bihari Vajpayee (current PM) and Congress is lead by Sonia Gandhi.
 
Max Habibi
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Thanks Sankar, very much appreciated
M
 
Shalu Ban
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Nice view there balaji

Originally posted by Balaji Loganathan:
Don't seperate politicians and the other people, No goverment employees want to do ugly things unless people go and ask for their ineligible favours (example university seats, land quota approval, certificates etc.,), it is people you are giving money to the politicians and they are not taking it by themselves from reserve.
First we can take try to be good by ourselves (in the sense being loyal and straight forward)and make our surroundings good.


Yup, you are right but the politicians should not be taking money and doing favors. If you are elected to represent people it is your responsibility to be honest. We cant change everybody who wanna get favors by influence or money. But since each MP/MLA represents a group of people they can bring about the change by being honest and working for the benefit of their constituency atleast. We become a good citizen by being loyal, straightforward and contributing to our country by being the best in whatever work we are doing. But we do desire a big change dont we? This will not be really possible unless people driven by patriotism, principles and knowledge get into politics and serve the country.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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Congress is a secular party


Are you sure? :roll:
 
Pradeep bhatt
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I removed what I considered an unkind description in your analysis of BJP, just because I'd don't want BJP supporters grumbling...as a matter of fact, I don't want anyone grumbling, so please don't grumble


You did the right thing.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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So by this logic are you ok with Sonia becoming the CM of UP?


Sure. I have been consistently saying that top posts should be reserved for Indian born citizens only. Top posts are President,PM,Chief Justice of Supreme court, Army chief etc .
No compromise on National Security. US understands this very well.
 
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Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:

Sure. I have been consistently saying that top posts should be reserved for Indian born citizens only. Top posts are President,PM,Chief Justice of Supreme court, Army chief etc .
No compromise on National Security. US understands this very well.


Anybody who gives the pretext of national security on this issue is a liar.For any foreigner to become citizen it takes minimum 10 years (generally in every country).To become a Chief Minister(Governer),generally it takes minimum 10 years in public life.By this time,(s)he is sufficciently 'exposed' in public.and to do antinational activities,one needs a network .It can not be done by one person.So if anybody wants to do antinational activity,(s)he will opt for bombs,building suicide teams,work as a spy for his mother country rather than entering public life,contesting for election and then work for that.
Which one is easier to create a mess in foriegn country:
1)Building suicide teams,make the bombs OR
2)Contest for election,create your 'good' image in public,win the election,maintain that for 10 years,contest for that 'top' post and then carry out anitinational activity?
Now for other posts you mentioned,like Chief of Army Staff,Chief Justice,there are ways for that.To become army chief in any country,there are requirements,and its not that any citizen is eligible for that.For Chief justice,atleast in India,High Court Justices,President,Parliament have to say 'Yes' on that person.Its highly unlikely that nobody will be aware about the background of such person contesting for that post.What do you say?
[ April 22, 2004: Message edited by: Ram Abdullah D'Souza ]
 
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Congress is a secular party [/QB]


Even after killing hundreds of sikhs in 1984 riots???
 
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Originally posted by Ram Abdullah D'Souza:

Anybody who gives the pretext of national security on this issue is a liar.


Conscious deception is only one possibility. A person who offers this pretext may simply believe the pretext is self-evident. A person may have applied reasoning in which the flaws -- assuming there some -- aren't clear to that person, yet. Still others who hold with this pretext may have relied on misguided information. Still others may simply have not examined what about national security is kept protected but 'feel' this is true.
There are also sorts of plausible reasons for arriving at a 'wrong' answer -- assuming it's wrong, and not an opnion about something for which 'the truth' is just as slippery. Bearing in mind that calling even 'anyone' a liar might inspire a less-than-friendly rebuttal, perhaps you'd like to reconsider your response to the pretext?
[ April 22, 2004: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
Pradeep bhatt
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By this time,(s)he is sufficciently 'exposed' in public.


A person may be exposed after decades. Like Sonia was exposed last week by NewIndianExpress.
 
Pradeep bhatt
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Its highly unlikely that nobody will be aware about the background of such person contesting for that post.What do you say?


If Congress they will make Sonia the chief Justice also.
Congress is running out of leaders and depending on century old Nehru legacy.
 
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