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Pro choice

 
Sheriff
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You may be right, Eugene. I have to admit that I didn't research it before I posted. I apologize. My bad.
 
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Some people complained when Jennifer Hudson was booted out from the American Idol. And when asked if they'd voted for her, the answer was no.
What I'm trying to say is, we cannot stop/condemn people from abortion unless we take action to help them. Did you watch the documentary Easy Prey presented by CNN today? These kids started prostituting at the very young age. Where were their parents? One of the kid's parent even acted as a pimp for him. Do you think these kids were happy?
Some children (whether they're healthy or not) are blessed with good and loving parents. Unfortunately, some are not.
Joyce
[ May 08, 2004: Message edited by: Joyce Lee ]
 
Leverager of our synergies
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I once read a short story about a man who was the subject of an experiment. He became smarter and smarter. In fact, he became a genius. However, for a reason I can't remember now, he gradually became less and less intelligent until he was back at his original intelligence level. However, when he was at that level, although he knew he was different than the masses, he didn't wish he was dead. Rather, he enjoyed life at the level he was at.
Daniel Keyes. "Flowers for Algernon"?
 
Wanderer
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Yes. There's a short story, novel, and movie version. The short story is very, very good; can't vouch for the others.
 
blacksmith
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Responding to me:
I would definitely prefer having been aborted to having been born mentally retarded, myself
Marilyn de Queiroz:
How do you know that? Perhaps you mean that you wouldn't want to deal with a retarded son, but that's different.
I meant what I said; that's why I wrote it that way. As for how I know, because it's my preferences we're talking about, not anyone else's - so I'm the one in the best position to know. I'm also better equipped to judge how my parents would likely have handled the situation, and what effect it would have had on their lives if I had been different, than people who don't know them, and I know what a wonderful person my brother is, and what a loss it would have been had my parents decided not to have a second child had their experience with the first been different than it was.
As for drawing conclusions about the preferences of one individual based on what a different individual says they would prefer, I don't think that's any more valid for retarded people than for people of normal or higher intelligence. Just because they are retarded does not make them interchangeable.
 
Desperado
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Originally posted by Marilyn de Queiroz:

The fetus before birth is ...


[DELETED...]
If you don't believe in abortion then don't have one!
Live and let live! JEEZ!!
[ May 08, 2004: Message edited by: Tony Alicea ]
 
Marilyn de Queiroz
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Warren, I'm glad that you weren't aborted or retarded, because then we would have missed your contributions here. Thanks for clarifying your statement.
 
Marilyn de Queiroz
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Tony, you have a right to your opinion. Lots of people share your opinion. But you state it as fact, not opinion. That's what I object to.
 
Tony Alicea
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Understood.
 
Mapraputa Is
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Jim: Yes. There's a short story, novel, and movie version. The short story is very, very good; can't vouch for the others.
I think a short story was translated into Russian, not a novel, but I am not sure. I heard about it from my coworker, who has a mentally retired son. Nothing too heavy, he went to the school like everybody else, yet enough to drive his parents crazy. We once spent an weekend together. We didn’t see the boy at all, he was somewhere fishing. Then one night we sit together and he suddenly started to tell us all the events, all with perfect rhythm and rhyme, all what happened when he was out. No idea how he could know what happened if he wasn't around, and no idea how he could rhyme all this in real time. But it was amazing.
 
slicker
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Tony Alicea: It's part of a woman's body?Really?
Tony, first off please don't freak out prematurely here... but I was wondering what if that is not the case? What comes to mind is how during slave times Black woman where rumored to have extraordinary mothering/woman skills. Which on one level seems like a compliment, but really only allowed white folks to turn cold to how they were treated the black versions of mom, sis, daughter, grandma, etc. The were compared to their own white women b/c black woman were 'special'. But we know that that is simply not the case. Okay so fast forward back to today and this topic. Maybe that fetus is NOT a part of a womans body but is a separate entity that has attached itself to a womans body. So it may not be the same as a tonsils. A fetus will NOT have the same DNA as its host, might not have the same sex, blood type, rh type, gender, color.
Its not so bizarre to have laws that invade an absolute sense of control of ones affairs. We can't perform suicide legally, can't sell our bodies for sex, can't have sex with our children, can't marry our siblings, can't abuse our children, can't have consensual sex with minors, etc, etc.
 
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What does the anti-abortionists say about chinese policy?
As far as I know chinese couples are allowed to have 2 kids only. For 3rd, 4rth, etc. kid, they'll have to pay prohibitive taxes.
It appears that this policy has been really eficient to lessen population explosion problem, which still heavily aflicts lots of parts of the world. On the other hand, there are cases in rural China, where parents kill female babies, because they think its better to have son. This is against the law, but the law creates the context for this behaviour.
Are such laws ok or not?
[ May 09, 2004: Message edited by: Axel Janssen ]
 
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Originally posted by Axel Janssen:
What does the anti-abortionists say about chinese policy?
As far as I know chinese couples are allowed to have 2 kids only. For 3rd, 4rth, etc. kid, they'll have to pay prohibitive taxes.
It appears that this policy has been really eficient to lessen population explosion problem, which still heavily aflicts lots of parts of the world. On the other hand, there are cases in rural China, where parents kill female babies, because they think its better to have son. This is against the law, but the law creates the context for this behaviour.


A Summary of positive-negative rights :
A "positive right is a claim to something ... while a negative right is a right that something not be done to one. ... The effectiveness of the negative right does not depend on a positive right, because enforcement will follow due to extralegal considerations.
... The negative right is diminished without positive government action but does not therefore require a positive legal right to be effective.
... There is a thin and confusing line between government action and inaction, but a negative right is one that can always be satisfied by inaction of some kind (even if it may also alternatively be satisfied by a government action), while a positive right cannot be satisfied by inaction and intrinsically requires government action.
... A negative right would be warranted, consequentially, if its restraint on government action improved the society. ... The outcome would seem to be consistent with the essence of the positive right, which is an individual entitlement to government assistance. ...
The �haves� must provide the �have-nots� with sustenance to maintain their �right to life.�
These are positive rights, a right to something that others must provide - they do not limit what others (including foetuses ?) may expect from us or we (as foetuses ? ) expected from others.
The rights to self, to property created through our own labor, to what we exchange with others� these are negative rights, they limit what others may expect from us.
In China abortion would be seen as a +ve right with no rights to foetuses , in the West abortion is generally a -ve right.(Which seem to amount to the same thing.)


Are such laws ok or not?


Should the person let someone else decide for the individual bearing in mind in some states the foetus is an individual with rights.
the two significant problems with relying on the courts to enforce positive rights and to promote the interests of the poor. The first problem involves the economics of rights enforcement. Advancing an agenda through litigation is not a simple or an inexpensive endeavor. Rather, it requires considerable resources and expertise, and the process disadvantages the very impoverished groups that positive rights are meant to protect. Hence, reliance on the judicial process to promote positive rights is an unpromising strategy. The second problem is the politics of rights enforcement. While we espouse an independent judiciary , the reality is that courts are loathe to displease the elected branches or to tread upon their constitutional turf. An order requiring those branches to fund and to offer economic assistance to the poor is the sort of action that the judiciary is unlikely to make or to enforce.
[ May 09, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
HS Thomas
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Personalities like Saint Bob Geldoff could go a long way to influencing governments.
Saint Bob praised the US administration for it's Aid programs bringing himself under criticism for forgeting the US stand on Aids programs particularly in Africa. A tragedy is that lots of children in Africa are born with Aids.
Saint Bill Gates will do
Why didn't Scott McNeally think of off-loading a few million to boost Sun ?
[ May 10, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
HS Thomas
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Message from the Committee's Secretariat
On Thursday 12 February the media reported a the research of some Korean scientists, who claim that they have produced 30 cloned human embryos. The research will be published in Science, one of the world�s leading journals (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3480921.stm
).
The research is being conducted to create stem cell lines, which could be used to treated degenerative disorders such as Parkinson�s disease. Research has shown that stem cells can develop into a wide range of tissues. The cloning technique means that the patient would not reject the implanted cells.
Research on human embryos for therapeutic purposes (including cloning) is legal in the UK but regulated under a 2001 amendment to the 1990 Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act.
What issues does the raise? Does this bring the prospect of reproductive cloning any nearer? Is there a danger that licences will be sought to export cloned embryos? Once out of the UK, it might be possible to take them to country in which they could be implanted in a woman�s womb?


Does it really matter? If human reproductive cloning can be proved safe and with a high chance of success, what are the ethical reasons for preventing it?
Dr Alun Roberts
Committee Specialist
Science and Technology Committee
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3493839.stm
- Athlete cheats seek genetic boost
[ May 10, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
HS Thomas
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Does it really matter what anyone thinks ?
Energy crisis 'will limit births'
My very last post - whatever the future smallholder or java coder - thanks to everyone for contributing to a great site, especially sheriffs and bartenders.Oh and trailboss. Owe a great debt which won't be forgotten and will act with more consciousness of actions and reactions. May the force be with you all and be wary of things that go 'bump' in the night.

and to the fans of Tori Amos , Rufus Wainwright , Johnny Cash
or just keen weed gardeners ?
[ May 10, 2004: Message edited by: HS Thomas ]
 
Every plan is a little cooler if you have a blimp. And a tiny ad.
Building a Better World in your Backyard by Paul Wheaton and Shawn Klassen-Koop
https://coderanch.com/wiki/718759/books/Building-World-Backyard-Paul-Wheaton
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