Quality of postings

[Keith Rosenfield]

At a risk of offending some people, I feel that I need to get this off my chest. I have found that many postings in this forum are difficult or impossible to read. Not because of the EJB concepts but because of the bad use of English. I understand that many contributers to this forum are not English speaking. I'm not sure what the solution is but most job postings I have seen ask for good communication skills. My suggestion to non-english speaking contributers is to take a course on English composition. It would help raise the qualitiy of the exchange. Also, before submitting a post, read it and see if it makes sense to you. Eliminate as many spelling and grammatical errors as you can. It's difficult enough learing ejb, a highly complex subject, then to have to decifer the point that is being made because of the poor use of English. Many of the postings as a result have no value.
For those who may take offense, that was not my intention. My intention is to put a spotlight on a problem that needs a solution.

[Philippe Maquet]

Hi Keith,
I must tell you that when I have a question, I much better appreciate an answer posted by a not native english speaker than ... no answer at all. If all people here who could be afraid of making a few English mistakes had to keep silent, you'd stay with most of your questions unanswered . BTW, I never read a post on JR that I couldn't understand at all. If something looks unclear I just ask for further explanations.
I don't see any issue with that, but of course I make English mistakes myself .
Best,
Phil.
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Philippe Maquet ]

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Phillipe,
Like everyone else I make English mistakes myself. I still strive to eliminate as many of those mistakes as I can. I wasn't suggesting that non-english speaking individuals shouldn't make posts to this site but that they should make an attempt to make their postings as legible as possible. Some of the postings on Java Ranch have been so illegible that I couldn't understand them at all. IMHO, those who have difficulty with English should take steps to improve. If I was writing or speaking in a foreign language, I would welcome as much constructive critism as I could get. Shouldn't we all set the bar as high as we can?
My intention with this post is to be constructive, not confrontational.
Thanks for you input, Phillipe.

[Anselm Paulinus]

Even Keith had some typos in her latest posting up there; is'nt that bad English? What is she complaining about? It is not mandatory that she must read any ones postings. I hope she is not taking out her frausteration of not having a job on members of Javaranch, because she is not alone.

[Bert Bates]

Here are a couple of tips for everyone who posts, regardless of their mastery of the english language:
1 - When in doubt, add more context! I often read posts that start in the middle of the problem, requiring me to figure out "what page" the poster was on when the post was created.
2 - Avoid phonetic spellings like "r u sure?" That's just harder for everyone to read.
3 - When citing reference material, make the cite as detailed as possible, include chapter #, page #, section #, mock question #, etc., all of which helps people locate your reference.
4 - Restate possibly ambiguous concepts.
5 - In general, remember that whoever is answering your post is donating his or her time, so do them a favor by asking the clearest question you can!

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hi Anselm:
Sorry about any typos I had in my posting. Typos are the least of the problem. Grammatical errors are really the problem. Sometimes I read a sentence over and over and still don't understand the meaning.
I noticed two errors in your post:
1. It's isn't not is'nt because the apostrophe replaces the o.
2. It's frustration not frausteration.
I suggest that you run any words you are unfamiliar with through a spell checker, just like I do.
By the way, I am a he not a she.
Thanks for your input

[D Kumar]

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Bert,
Thanks for your suggestions. I welcome any input that can help me improve my communications. I hope everyone who posts to this forum will follow your suggestions as I will.

[Anselm Paulinus]

Did you run this through a spell check yet it did not detect this typo on your posting "It's difficult enough learing ejb" ? I wonder how many languages you are so fluent in speaking as well as writing. My dear I advice you post technical related stuffs rather than whining over ones grammatical expression.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hi Anselm,
Yes, I do make typos. As I said, I strive to eliminate them as everyone else should. I do know how to spell learning. I just missed the n when I typed it. That's different than not knowing the spelling of a word and just taking a stab at it. If you are only concerned with technical stuff then you shouldn't take part in this thread. My hope is that there will be individuals who are receptive and will work towards improving the exchange in this forum and all java ranch forums.
All the best
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]

[Anselm Paulinus]

[Derision edited] Keith:
Whether it is typo or taking a stab at a word like you termed it; its all bad English. [More personal attack].
Good bye
[[Sheriff to Anselm: Mind your manners or I'll mind them for you.]]
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]

[D Kumar]

Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
Hi Anselm,
Yes, I do make typos. As I said, I strive to eliminate them as everyone else should. I do know how to spell learning. I just missed the n when I typed it. That's different than not knowing the spelling of a word and just taking a stab at it. If you are only concerned with technical stuff then you shouldn't take part in this thread. My hope is that there will be individuals who are receptive and will work towards improving the exchange in this forum and all java ranch forums.
All the best

[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]

Looks like you have made lot of typos and grammatical mistakes and so we see two edits in your posts.

[v giri]

There is no doubt about the fact that good English is a great pleasure to read. At the same time Java and other languages / operating systems offer locale support which ensures that expertise in IT is *not* restricted to english world. I have run into several guys who are brilliant technically but never felt the need to improve their english.
We all talk of *great* communication skills as a need but they can never substitute for technical expertise.
If we start pointing out english errors of members of JR, they would feel very emabarrassed and simply stop posting or look for other forums.
I would still feel posts are unfortunate if they ask the obvious - not if they have grammatical errors.
I recall an instance when a supervisor addressed his team as G*ys when he wanted say Guys and spellchecker did not stop that person. So much for the reliability of spell checkers.
Just my 2 cents.
Best wishes
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: v giri ]

[Keith Rosenfield]

D Kumar,
Yes, I did make two minor errors in my posting. I used a comma instead of a period and I forgot to make a word plural by adding an s. When I noticed these errors I took it upon myself to correct them. That is my point. We should all make the effort to eliminate as many errors as we can. We should all read our posts before submitting them and ask ourselves "If I were another person reading this, would it make sense to me?"
I have no problem when someone provides me with constructive critism, as some people do.
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]

[Philippe Maquet]

Is "I won't waste any more time on you." correct English ?
As a french speaker, I'd have written "I won't waste any more time with you.".
OK guys, please don't reply "It depends on the position you like" !
Best,
Phil.

[Vishwa Kumba]

Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

[Pradeep bhatt]

I agree that it very important to improve one's English. I am working hard on doing that myself. I have not yet succeeded yet.
In my opinion pointing out errors in someone's post will make her/him not to make further posts. What do others feel?
You are welcome to find errors in my posts though.

[Pradeep bhatt]

Originally posted by Vish Kumar:
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

It would be great if you could please coach me .

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey v giri:

Originally posted by v giri:
We all talk of *great* communication skills as a need but they can never substitute for technical expertise.
If we start pointing out english errors of members of JR, they would feel very emabarrassed and simply stop posting or look for other forums.

This is a communication forum with English being the medium of communication. It is used to communicate the of thoughts, ideas, solutions and concepts to others. It's not enough to have technical expertise if you can't cleary express your thoughts to others in a common language. I didn't mean to suggest that we point out english errors of members. My suggestion is that all members, me included, should strive to make this communication the best that it can be.

Originally posted by v giri:
I recall an instance when a supervisor addressed his team as G*ys when he wanted say Guys and spellchecker did not stop that person. So much for the reliability of spell checkers.

Spell checkers are only one line of defense. They are good at finding errors in spelling when we are not sure of the correct spelling of a word. We should also read our postings carefully before submitting them as another line of defense. If the supervisor had done so, he would have noticed his mistake.
Thanks for your input.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Vish,

Originally posted by Vish Kumar:
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm.
Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

That is very clever. But could you make sense of this.
Accardings to reasiching on Cambrige. It's not mattering in the orders of laters in words. Only importaning is farst later be right and last later be right.
I know this is an extreme example but this is what I feel I'm up against at times.
Thanks for your input

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Pradeep:

Originally posted by Pradeep Bhat:
I agree that it very important to improve one's English. I am working hard on doing that myself. I have not yet succeeded yet.
In my opinion pointing out errors in someone's post will make her/him not to make further posts. What do others feel?
You are welcome to find errors in my posts though.

I admire you for making an effort to improve your English and being receptive to constructive criticism. I am English speaking and I still strive to improve my English.
Here's an minor error I noticed in your last post:
- Instead of saying "I have not yet succeeded yet." you should have said "I have not succeeded yet." There was an extra yet that didn't need to be there.
Thanks for your input

[Vishwa Kumba]

In my experience of working in the US and India, I have seen some people(Chinese&Indians) whose english was very bad
but they were technically very strong and had a high IQ. I also came across a German Programmer whose enthusiasm and concepts in Java
and algorithms was exceptionally good but his english? don't ask me...
If we are too strict about language, I am afraid we might loose such people here.
Not all people take criticism in the right way. Nobody likes weaknesses being pointed and that too in a public forum.
The best that I could do is not to worry...and ask for more clarification. I am sure the other ranchers also would start
responding and soon the question/answers would become clear.
It is a known fact that people with good english and communication skills always have a great advantage.
"Intelligent people understand their mistakes/weaknesses sooner or later and would strive to overcome them."

[Vladas Razas]

Why should we improve english? I don't get any "english" money I would better spend my time taking a girl to date, or read some books. Nobody pays me for the english. Besides I know two other languages which are considered more complex than english. So where is my money for my english? And why didn't I hear anybody complain to american person for not knowing other language well, like french? Because people understand that it is very hard to master foreign language. Honestly I would be offended if someone would start complaining about my english. I would say "ok. so we can talk MY language!".
Vladas The Ignorant
Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness..

[Tim Cerillo]

Originally posted by Keith Rosenfield:
Eliminate as many spelling and grammatical errors as you can. It's difficult enough learing ejb, a highly complex subject, then to have to decifer the point that is being made because of the poor use of English.

What is decifer?

[Anselm Paulinus]

There are a lot of factors that affect ones spoken or written English. I have seen a lot of people here make comments like "I will be giving the Exam". At first I did not understand what that meant but with time it made sense to me and I think this must have to do with the persons first language or culture. How do you advice a Chinese or Japanese living in China or Japan to take an English course just because he/she has to post at Javaranch. More so the only thing Java language has in common with English language is the word "Language" else they are strictly independent of each other; this site on the other hand is designed to improve ones Java and not ones English. I think it is time K&B come up with EnglishRanch site devoted to the improvement of English language, and for those who think it is that easy writing or speaking a second or third language, please try to learn a new language; only then would you find out that passing a language course does not make you anything in that language; it is just like the certification we take which has little or no value to employers.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Vladas,

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
Why should we improve english?
I don't get any "english" money I would better spend my time taking a girl to date, or read some books. Nobody pays me for the english...
Besides I know two other languages which are considered more complex than english. So where is my money for my english?

Do you only do improve yourself for monetary gain? Don't you think improving yourself to be the best person you can be is enough? I do.

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
And why didn't I hear anybody complain to american person for not knowing other language well, like french? Because people understand that it is very hard to master foreign language. Honestly I would be offended if someone would start complaining about my english. I would say "ok. so we can talk MY language!".

The fact is that English is the medium of communication in this forum. What value would French be in this forum. By the way, Je parle un peu Francais(please correct my spelling, if necessary). I have studied other languages and I know how much of a challenge it can be. I have also heard that English is a very difficult languages for non-english speaking people to learn. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive to improve or level of communication. My intention is not to complain, but to improve. As I said in a previous post, even though I am English speaking I still strive to improve my skills.
Thanks for your input.

[Nathaniel Stoddard]

IMO, a good software engineer is going to need to be able to resolve language issues like these. Even if we are all speaking perfect english, as software engineers, we're going to go over what is said over and over (communication) to make sure everything is semantically correct in addition to syntactically.
Language problems forces communication through necessary clarification. Communication in turn brings its own benefits.
In addition to the obvious jar-headedness of *some* people, the lack of understanding of language issues will end up preventing necessary software engineering activities.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Thanks Tim,

Originally posted by Tim Cerillo:


What is decifer?

My bad. I looked it up. It's decipher. This is what I'm talking about. Take constructive criticism in stride. I will never spell that word incorrectly again.
I appreciate your correction.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Anselm

Originally posted by Anselm Paulinus:
More so the only thing Java language has in common with English language is the word "Language" else they are strictly independent of each other; this site on the other hand is designed to improve ones Java and not ones English.

I believe that Java and any computer language have much in common with spoken languages. They both have grammars, syntax and semantics. Just like you can construct a computer statement that is syntactically correct but makes no semantic sense, you can construct an English sentence that is grammatically correct but makes no semantic sense. Computer compilers will complain when your syntax is incorrect and programmers don't take issue with this. Computer programs just won't do what you expect them to do semantically if your logic is flawed. Human beings are not as strict as compilers. We can sometimes understand what we are reading without it being grammatically correct. Many times though, the even though the grammar is adequate, it is difficult or impossible to determine what the writer was trying to say.
The medium of communication in this forum is English. We use English to communicate EJB concepts in this forum. How can we effectively use English to communicate these concepts if our English is inadequate?

[Philippe Maquet]

Hi Keith,
Nathaniel is right in his post. Communication and language skills are two different things and communication is more important than language IMO. Even if you make few mistakes in English (a few typos and mispellings - despite you're a native English speaker and despite your spell-checker), I think you made a *communication* mistake with this thread. I am sorry about that (for you), even if this thread has been like a sunlight ray in my dark study day (I'll pass my SCBCD exam on Friday)
I don't think anybody here has been offended by this thread though. JR is a very nice place where people coming from all parts of the world *communicate* on Java in a good atmosphere to help each other. So I don't think anybody here will have a grudge against you because of this tactless thread : who could claim he never makes a mistake in any area ? But if I were you, I wouldn't insist that much : a mistake doesn't need to be highlighted.

By the way, Je parle un peu Francais (please correct my spelling, if necessary).

Not so bad ! There are only two (little) mistakes in that sentence : language names are not capitalized in French, and "francais" spells "fran�ais" (even if your keyboard has no '�' character ).
No hard feelings anyway ! I am looking forward to meet you again, but in some technical discussion (yes, I am sincere).
Best,
Phil.

[Vladas Razas]

I don't see anything bad in learning English. My priority is advancing to super-advanced technical person. I would love to put big "J" on my flight suit. English doesn't hurt indeed. But I am afraid it doesn't matter how hard I would try to perfect my english. I will never be able to compete with Shakespeare. Just to put it simply - english is not my native language.
Also don't forget that developers writing in forums are often red eyed vampires who don't eat, only drink beer and sit next to computer till 3-5 am. Developer is not a job it's a way of life!
Vladas with big "J"

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Philippe:
I don't think this thread was a mistake in the least. Look at all the postings to this thread. It shows how much interest there is in this area. It's not just in this forum but in many other arenas that communications skills are seriously deficient. But my intent in spotlighting it here was to hopefully be a catalyst for improvement. I know that I have taken a risk of people misunderstanding my intentions.
Thanks for the corrections to my fren�h. If only I knew how to type that '�
' character. (I copied and pasted it from your posting)

I wish you the best on Friday. I know you will pass it easily.
BTW..It's misspellings not mispellings.

[Vladas Razas]

Regarding communication vs programming language
Let me go ahead and disagree! Whichever is more important depends on your job position and what you want to do with your life. If you want to go to management, become a sales person or public relations representative then english is way more important. But if you enjoy coding and technical stuff.. I guess people will forgive you your little english mistakes as long as you develop faster than 3 other developers who dream to become managers.
This thread is fun. Thanks, Keith. My exam is on Sunday. This is so relaxing...
Defense rests

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Vladas:

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
English doesn't hurt indeed. But I am afraid it doesn't matter how hard I would try to perfect my english. I will never be able to compete with Shakespeare. Just to put it simply - english is not my native language.

I don't have perfect English either and it is my native language. I still work on improving it. I'm not trying for perfection but for improvement and so should you.
BTW..I never really did understand what the heck Shakespeare was trying to say

[Philippe Maquet]

I wish you the best on Friday.

Thanks for the wish.

[Nathaniel Stoddard]

I think if you're really serious about being a good software engineer, you're going to do everything you can to effectively communicate with the other person, given their English skills. That is, whether a person speaks English well or not, should not influence your capacity to do your job well.
Basically, if you're having problems understanding people's English and it is negatively affecting your ability to do your work, you're in the wrong business.

[Keith Rosenfield]

Hey Vladas:

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
Regarding communication vs programming language
Let me go ahead and disagree! Whichever is more important depends on your job position and what you want to do with your life. If you want to go to management, become a sales person or public relations representative then english is way more important. But if you enjoy coding and technical stuff.. I guess people will forgive you your little english mistakes as long as you develop faster than 3 other developers who dream to become managers.

Even as a coder, you must still communicate in a language. If it is English, you should strive to do it well. You will probably have to write comments and documentation in English. You will have to communicate with your superiors and colleagues in English. This forum is in English and if we are going to effectively ask and answer questions our English should be of a high quality.

Originally posted by Vladas Razas:
This thread is fun. Thanks, Keith. My exam is on Sunday. This is so relaxing...

I'm glad you are enjoying this thread. Thanks for participating in it. I wish you all the best on Sunday. Let us all know how you make out.
Good luck.
[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Keith Rosenfield ]

[Vladas Razas]

I will do my best! Meanwhile I will study design patterns and UML to improve my communication skills. I will talk to people using those languages too! There is so much to learn. I am switching from Microsoft world to Java. Learning Java is not hard. But next you have to learn those other technologies to make it useful. And there are so many!!! I will spend 500$ on books only. Here is the list of technologies for J2EE developer:
Servlets, JSP
JDBC,
EJB,
Struts,
Ant (if you want to set up your building process),
J2EE patterns,
UML,
WebSphere (here is you can pick up your favorite server)
Only and only after all of these technologies learned and practiced I will say, yes I am good J2EE developer! You see... not so much time for english...

[Michael Ernest]

As much as I'm enjoying a grammatically incorrect plea for better English in this forum, I'd like to add my two cents on a more serious note here.
One the one hand, English is the proper language for our forums. On the other, correct English goes with the ability of the participant. Anything you can do to provide a simpler, clearer, more accessible post is always welcome.
I'd worry less about proper English myself and more about good communication. As a rule, for example, never treat uncommented code as self-evident to anything but a compiler. Also, it's far less important to respond quickly than to respond well. JavaRanch is not a tech support center that is judged by how quickly it responds to a question. Some of you may disagree, but I'll be the first the tell you that if people praise JR for how quickly they can get an answer, it's only a happy by-product of what we aim for here: a friendly place for Java greenhorns to meet.

[Joe McIntyre]

I too am enjoying this amusing thread, and just can't resist joining the fray with a few comments.
First, given the number of EXCELLENT software developers coming onto the scene these days from places like India, us red-blooded American native English speakers better not be too picky about language. It may not be long before "broken" English will become the defacto standard in this industry!
Second, software developers are not exactly known for their ability to get along with each other and work smoothly together. I've noticed employers are delighted when they find someone with good social skills, particularly if they need that person to participate in management as well as development. What they look for is someone who can leverage the skills of the people who work for them or with them. That means making people feel good about themselves and their contributions, and finding ways to work around their shortcomings. In my opinion, weakness in the English language is almost always a very minor problem at best, and any manager worth his salt should be able to work around it.
Finally, particularly in the software development field, good communication is not about correct English. It's about getting people to understand the concepts you're trying to communicate. It's difficult to say exactly what skills are required to do this effectively, but I think it takes something more than just correct English. As a matter of fact, I think the contrast between the Head First EJB book and many of the other software books on the market vividly demonstrates this point. I've read plenty of books that are chocked full of abstract buzzwords, correct grammar, and long winded, difficult to understand explanations of the technology. For my money, this is "bad English". I'd much rather read an author who can cut to the quick, and make a complicated thing seem easy. This is what I like about the Head First EJB book. EJB seemed pretty mystifying to me until I read HF EJB... now I wonder how I could have ever thought it was difficult.

[ December 10, 2003: Message edited by: Wally Flint ]