Buying a Java-enabled Phone

[Dirk Schreckmann]

In the next day or two, I plan to finally get a cell phone - a Java-enabled phone to be sure.
I'm curious if I should be very concerned about what processor is used.
I'll likely get Nokia's 3650 Model. After clicking around their site a while, I can't seem to find information concerning processing horsepower.
Anybody know where such information can be found? And should I really care, or are most phones at this price level using more or less the same processor?
[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Dirk Schreckmann ]

[Theodore Casser]

Well, Microsoft has PocketPC Phone Edition devices listed at their website (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/default.mspx). It should be easy enough to load a VM on these, I think. Each of the phones available packs at least a 206MHz processor and 32 Mb. of RAM, as well as interconnectability with a PC...
I should note that I don't usually promote MS products... but with how happy I am with my PPC2002 PDA, I think right now I'd probably buy a phone running Windows Mobile too.
[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Theodore Casser ]

[Michael Yuan]

Anybody know where such information can be found? And should I really care, or are most phones at this price level using more or less the same processor?[/QB]

Hmm, the processor info is propietary. Even if they tell you the MHz number, you will not know how it runs Java apps. The Nokia 3650 is a Symbian phone -- that means you can do both C++ and Java (although Java is preferred!).
There is a web site out there doing benchmark testing for Java phones. I cannot remember the exact address now. Does anyone remember? I think Nokia 3650 is pretty high on the list.

[Michael Yuan]

I should note that I don't usually promote MS products... but with how happy I am with my PPC2002 PDA, I think right now I'd probably buy a phone running Windows Mobile too.[/QB]

I have a T-Mobile PowerPC Phone 2002. It is an excellent PDA but NOT a very good phone. The biggest problem I had is: When the phone goes out of range and comes back in, the OS has a hard time picking up the signal again. Is it a problem wiith the OS? My contact in Microsoft recognize this problem and said I could always re-insert the SIM card!
Also, although it has a powerful processor and lots of useful sooftware, the battery life is too short for a serious phone. It requires recharging everyday. My Motorola i95cl suffers the same problem. But all my Nokia phones seem to be very good in terms of battery life. (BTW, Yes, I do have that many phones

[serge masse]

I recommend buying a phone that is MIDP2-enabled (MIDP version 2.0) and not bother with one which is MIDP 1.0. Here is a draft table of MIDP2 devices. The table is incomplete.
[table cannot render -- deleted by Michael Yuan]
[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Michael Yuan ]

[serge masse]

I apologize for the html source being so long. I expected a the source to be rendered as a table.

[Michael Yuan]

Serge,
You can provide a link to your table. UBB does not support arbitary HTML formating tags.
As for MIDP 2 devices, I have used MIDP 2 on PocketPC for quite some time. Nokia 6600 is a real MIDP 2 phone device. It is very similar to the 3650.

[Theodore Casser]

Originally posted by Michael Yuan:
I have a T-Mobile PowerPC Phone 2002. It is an excellent PDA but NOT a very good phone. The biggest problem I had is: When the phone goes out of range and comes back in, the OS has a hard time picking up the signal again. Is it a problem wiith the OS? My contact in Microsoft recognize this problem and said I could always re-insert the SIM card!

Well, I was going to say, is that an OS problem or more one with whatever software has to pick up the signal? It might not be an OS problem but more an application one.
Regardless, yeah, that would be a major factor in deciding on a model.

Also, although it has a powerful processor and lots of useful sooftware, the battery life is too short for a serious phone. It requires recharging everyday.

There are those of us who plug our phones in every night anyway, you know.
Admittedly, if I got a smartphone, it would be more for the neato factor than for anything else, since I'm quite happy with a dedicated cellphone and a seperate PDA. My biggest issue with the PocketPC phones is their size - they seem very wide and I don't know that I'd want to have to hold something that size to my ear.

[serge masse]

MIDP2 Devices - draft - to be reviewed
Serge Masse 2003.07.24

Available in USA Now:
Device Name: Tungsten C
Type: Pda w/ WiFi
Brand: Palm
Software: Palm OS 5.2.1; users must install the MIDP2 platform. MIDP2 capability is not confirmed.
Screen Pixels: 320x320
MB RAM: 51 usable
CPU: Intel XScale PXA255
MHz: 400
Review: http://www.infosyncworld.com/hardware/handhelds/n/206.html
Comments: Palmsource is in partnership with IBM, Novell, and Visto.

Device Name: Tungsten T2 http://www.bargainpda.com/images/products/00000490.jpg
Type: Pda w/WiFi (w/attachement)
Brand: Palm
Software: Palm OS 5.2.1; IBM's WebSphere Micro Environment J2ME
Pixels: 320x320
MB RAM: 30 usable
CPU: TI OMAP1510 = TMS320C55x DSP + enhanced ARM925
MHz: 144
MobileMIPS: 544
Status: midp2 capability is not confirmed.

Device Name: Zaurus SL-C750, SL-C760
Type: Pda
Brand: Sharp
Software: Linux; users must install the MIDP2 platform.
Pixels: 640x480
MB RAM: 30, plus 65 of flash
CPU: Intel XScale
MHz: 400
Status: Available in USA from Dynamism. MIDP2 capability is not confirmed.
Comments: Sharp partners with SAP & IBM.

Device Name: (multiple) http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00006RSK5.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg
Type: Pda
Software: Microsoft PocketPC; users must install the MIDP2 platform, e.g., Jbed ME (not free) from http://www.esmertec.com; MIDP2 capability is confirmed.

Device Name: BlackBerry
Type: Pda
Brand: RIM = Research In Motion
Software: users must install the MIDP2 platform, e.g., Jeode (not free).
Status: MIDP2 capability is not confirmed.
Expected to be available in USA in late 2003:

P800, Phone/ pda, Sony Ericsson; Symbian v7.0, Handango, 208x320 pixels, 12 MB usable w/ 16 on stick, ARM 9, Available in USA now, but these models are not yet MIDP2-capable; may be upgraded to Midp2 in the box in late 2003 by manufacturer. US Carrier: T-Mobile. 94 % of all smartphones run Symbian software.

P810, Phone/ pda, Sony Ericsson, Announced for Sept. 2003 in USA.

Zaurus SL-5600, Pda w/ WiFi; Sharp; Embedix Linux; users must install the MIDP2 platform; MIDP2 capability is not confirmed. Announced for USA market; IBM has dev tools: Multimodal Toolkit for WebSphere Studio, WebSphere Everyplace Multimodal Environment for Embedix; also see X+V at w3c.

SGH-i500, Phone/ pda, Samsung, Palm OS 5.2, 320x353, 32 MB, Intel PXA262, 300 MHz, expected in July 2003 from Sprint PCS; MIDP2 capability is not confirmed. Samsung is #3 phone vendor overall.

Clie PEG-UX50, aka. Clie ux50, http://www.bargainpda.com/images/products/00001064.jpg, Pda w/WiFi & Bluetooth, Sony, Palm OS 5.2, MIDP2 capability is not confirmed, 480x320, 32 MB, 16 usable, plus 22 of flash rom; ARM926, 300 MHz; announced in USA for Sept 2003; available for pre-order now.

Clie PEG-UX40, same as UX50 but without WiFi.

G1000, Phone w/full keyboard; Hitachi; Microsoft Pocket PC Phone Edition; users must install the MIDP2 platform; 32 MB, Intel XScale PXA255, 400MHz, Announced by Sprint for Sept. 2003, MIDP2 capability is not confirmed. 6 % of all smartphones run Microsoft software.
May be available in USA in 2004:

Mio 8380, Phone, Mitac, Microsoft Smartphone; users must install the MIDP2 platform.

Agp 600, Phone, Asus, Microsoft Smartphone 2003 Ozone; Windows CE .NET 4.1; users must install the MIDP2 platform. Review: http://msmobiles.com/news.php/448.html

SX1, Siemens. To be upgraded to midp2 in the box, possibly in 2003.

PEG-NX60, PEG-NX70V, Phone/ pda, Sony, Palm OS 5.0, Announced, Midp2 ?

Treo 600, Phone/ pda, Handspring, Palm OS 5.x, 160x160, ARM. Announced. Now owned by Palm.
Available out of USA Now: don't know
To be available out of USA in late 2003 or 2004:

Nokia 6600, Phone, Symbian v7.0s (MIDP2 capability is confirmed); Series 60; 176x208 pixels; http://www.forum.nokia.com/pics/6600_phonepage.jpg; Nokia is the #1 phone vendor overall; Symbian shareholders: Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Siemens, Motorola, Matsushita, Psion, and Samsung (Samsung purchaged 5% of Symbian in 2003). 94 % of all smartphones run Symbian software.

J-sh53, Phone, Sharp, s/w: Jblend. Announced by Vodafone/J-phone in Japan. http://www.aplixcorp.com/products/jblend.html

Tungsten T3, Phone/Pda, Palm, Palm OS 5.2.1, 320x480, 51 MB usable. Not officially announced.

A760, Phone/Pda, Motorola, Linux. Announced for 2003.Q4 in Asia, then Europe in 2004. When in USA? Motorola is #2 phone manufacturer overall.
=====
Note 1: Not MIDP2 but MIDP1: http://wireless.java.sun.com/device/index.html (one in the table is MIDP2, the Nokia 6600)
=====
Note 2: Other Palm OS partners: Acer, AlphaSmart, Fossil, Garmin, Kyocera, Symbol

[Dirk Schreckmann]

Thank you all for the info.

Originally posted by Michael Yuan:
There is a web site out there doing benchmark testing for Java phones. I cannot remember the exact address now. Does anyone remember? I think Nokia 3650 is pretty high on the list.

Through Google, I ran across one performance comparison, and, yes, the 3650 did perform relatively well.
http://www.midlet-review.com/articles/benchmark.htm

[serge masse]

another MIDP2 phone was confirmed: in USA, second half of 2003: Motorola V200 with JBlend
http://commerce.motorola.com/consumer/QWhtml/v600.html

[serge masse]

Originally posted by serge masse:
another MIDP2 phone was confirmed: in USA, second half of 2003: Motorola V200 with JBlend
http://commerce.motorola.com/consumer/QWhtml/v600.html

it's the V600, not V200...

[Frank Manno]

Does the Motorola T720g support MIDP 2.0? Some of these phones don't make it clear:
http://www.motorola.ca/asp/english/pcs/features.asp?phone=T720g&str_ref=
Is it possible to upgrade a MIDP1.0 phone to 2.0 via a software download, or is it embedded in the hardware?

[serge masse]

Originally posted by Frank Manno:
Does the Motorola T720g support MIDP 2.0? Some of these phones don't make it clear:
http://www.motorola.ca/asp/english/pcs/features.asp?phone=T720g&str_ref=
Is it possible to upgrade a MIDP1.0 phone to 2.0 via a software download, or is it embedded in the hardware?

In general, if a manufacturer writes *MIDP* and does not specify *MIDP 2.0* then they mean MIDP 1.0.
For a MIDP-capable device, the platform software is usually burned in ROM (read-only memory) and must be installed at the factory. Some manufacturers have announced new versions of some devices that will soon contain MIDP2 ROM and that only have MIDP1 ROM currently, see the P800 for example

[serge masse]

fyi - Just read this on a Qualcomm brew page http://www.qualcomm.com/brew/images/about/pdf/brew_j2me.pdf :

Leading J2ME VM developers, such as esmertec (esmertec has acquired the JVM assets of
Insignia Solutions; www.esmertec.com/download/pdf/esmertecacquiresInsigniaJVM.htm)
and IBM, have already developed VM extensions for BREW and are currently in the process
of optimizing these VMs for commercial deployment. These VMs can be downloaded over
the air and automatically provisioned on a BREW Client 2.0 handset (assuming the target
device has sufficient memory) � meaning there is zero effort or cost to the handset
manufacturer, who can have �Java handsets� in the market simply by shipping BREW 2.0-
based phones. These BREW extensions give wireless operators interested in offering Javalanguage
applications the opportunity to take advantage of the complete BREW solution on
devices that did not include a MIDP-compliant VM at the factory. MIDP 2.0 VMs can be
provisioned OTA too, when they are ready.

so it looks like BREW 2.0 can update the JVM over the air. impressive.
serge

[Frank Manno]

Is Nokia the only company offering MIDP2-enabled phones? I haven't been able to find any others. I figured Siemens would have had a couple out by now.

[serge masse]

USA Phones w/ MIDP2 Confirmed:
==============================
Handspring Treo 600, Phone/ pda, Palm OS 5.x, 160x160, ARM. Announced for end of 2003. Now owned by Palm.

Sony Ericsson P810, Phone/ pda. Announced for Sept. 2003 in USA.

SX1, Siemens. To be upgraded to midp2 out of the box, possibly in 2003, by Siemens.

Nokia 6600, Symbian v7.0s; Series 60; 176x208 pixels; http://www.forum.nokia.com/pics/6600_phonepage.jpg; Nokia is the #1 mobile phone vendor overall; Symbian shareholders: Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Siemens, Motorola, Matsushita, Psion, and Samsung. 94 % of all smartphones run Symbian software - apparently.

Possibly all Qualcomm phones with Brew 2.0 will be MIDP2-capable, once the virtual machines are available.

Other Announced MIDP2 Phones:
=============================
Sharp J-sh53, Jblend. Announced by Vodafone/J-phone in Japan. http://www.aplixcorp.com/products/jblend.html

Sony Ericsson P800, Phone/ pda; Symbian v7.0, Handango, 208x320 pixels, 12 MB usable w/ 16 on stick, ARM 9, Available in USA now, but not yet MIDP2-capable; may be upgraded to Midp2 out of the box in late 2003 by manufacturer. US Carrier: T-Mobile. 94 % of all smartphones run Symbian software.

Motorola A760, Phone/Pda, Linux. Announced for 2003.Q4 in Asia, then Europe in 2004. When in USA? Motorola is #2 mobile phone manufacturer overall.

Hitachi G1000, w/full keyboard; Microsoft Pocket PC Phone Edition; users must install the MIDP2 platform; 32 MB, Intel XScale PXA255, 400MHz, Announced by Sprint for Sept. 2003, MIDP2 capability is *not* confirmed. 6 % of all smartphones run Microsoft software.

Mitac Mio 8380, Microsoft Smartphone; users must install the MIDP2 platform.

Asus Agp 600, Microsoft Smartphone 2003 Ozone; Windows CE .NET 4.1; users must install the MIDP2 platform. Review: http://msmobiles.com/news.php/448.html

Sony PEG-NX60, PEG-NX70V, Phone/ pda, Palm OS 5.0. MIDP2 capability is *not* confirmed

Samsung SGH-i500, Phone/ pda, Palm OS 5.2, 320x353, 32 MB, Intel PXA262, 300 MHz, expected in July 2003 from Sprint PCS; MIDP2 capability is *not* confirmed. Samsung is #3 phone vendor overall.

Palm Tungsten T3, Phone/Pda, Palm OS 5.2.1, 320x480, 51 MB usable. Not officially announced.

[Frank Manno]

Hey all,
I've been looking through the list of devices posted by Serge (by the way, thank you very much for the list), and it seems that most of these devices look to be Phone/PDA combos.
I'll be heading to Europe in September and would like to find a phone that supports MIDP 2.0 and has a built-in camera. So far, it seems that the Nokia 6600 is the only solution available.
Does anyone know of any other phones (not PDAs) that support MIDP2 and have cameras built-into them?
Any help on this is appreciated.

Thanks!

[Dirk Schreckmann]

Just what everybody's been waiting for, here's an update on my phone purchase.
I did get the Nokia 3650 and I'm happy to report that the thing is pretty slick.
It's already replaced my palm pilot, as it does everything it did, except the touch screen input aspect. Anybody know someone that wants a palm m100?
The battery is tiny, yet lasts a good long time.
I really like the bigger-than-most-cell-phones color screen. It's easy to read from many angles and lighting conditions.
The built-in camera has been fun to have. The quality isn't stellar, but it's a lot better than nothing.
Emailing and text messaging from the phone is workign well.
Someone assisted me in learning that it didn't stop working when dropped on asphalt from about four feet up - twice.
I wish the main direction controlling button mechanism were bigger. My hands are smaller than many adult males I know. I'm able to use it ok, I just always wish it were a bit larger or of a different style.
I've been told by one person that the built-in microphone and the headset microphone pick up more background noise than other cell phones. I can't confirm that experience.
Overall, it's a very nice phone to have, which is a much different experience than the two phones I've had in years past.

[Ben Hui]

glad you like that phone dirk, I am also a happy user of 3650. And my app run well on it
and if you are doing development on 3650, you may be interested in this page that list some useful resources of 3650.
http://www.benhui.net/feature/nokia3650.html
ben

[Ben Hui]

and adding to serge's list, the new Samsung SGH-P400 is also MIDP 2.0 enabled.
Serge, thanks for the list. I think this is a useful list so I will put this on my website for future reference. hope you don't mind
ben

[serge masse]

Originally posted by Ben Hui:
and adding to serge's list, the new Samsung SGH-P400 is also MIDP 2.0 enabled.
Serge, thanks for the list. I think this is a useful list so I will put this on my website for future reference. hope you don't mind
ben

Go ahead Ben. It is an honor for me.
serge

[Erwin Bredford]

i was wondering if Nokia 2100 is java-enabled is it?

[David Price]

Nokia 2100 is not Java-enabled.