Request to Ranchers in this forum ...

[Brian Lugo]

Please Please!!!
Correctly type your code in your POSTs. Type it so that any body can cut and paste it in a editor and try out that code. It would do you no harm to try it out yourself too.
Please try to avoid silly mistakes like forgetting semicolons, braces, etc. Remove all the syntax errors not related to the question in your POST and then post your message.
If the compiler error is occuring at a particular statement, please mark that statement and other statements in the code that you are typing in your POSTs.
No offense to anyone,
Lets make this a better place to visit,
Brian
PS - NO FLAMES PLEASE!!
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Brian Lugo ]

[Valentin Crettaz]

I back you up Brian
Providing poorly-written and untested code will only waste your time and other's since people will generally not understand what your question is, and several posts will be needed to clarify the situation which is clearly a pure waste of time and resources.
Folks, you heard it, so avoid having your b*&t kicked for nothing
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]

[Brian Lugo]

Thanks for backing me up Valentin!
I wish there would be a coding policy over here just like there is a naming policy .
Do you think this could be mentioned in the FAQ?
Damn newbies ...
No, just kidding.
Brian

[Valentin Crettaz]

Brian,
People don't read the FAQ anyway
People don't even how to register properly with a first name and a last name, how can you request from them to write code properly
The only thing you can do is kick some butt everyday, and that's exactly what we do
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Valentin Crettaz ]

[Jose Botella]

I dare to ask for more. People saying this code produces an error should mention what error is.

[Brian Lugo]

Valantin!
I understand you completely. I manage a web site for living.
How about putting couple of statements on the forum page about coding pratices?
Or when a person tries to post a message or replies to a post you notify the user about coding practices?
Jose, I agree with you.
I think it is worth trying. If we don't try, we will never know.
Brian

[Valentin Crettaz]

Brian,
We (the happy Javaranch crew ) are working on it, the bottom line is that people DON'T read the FAQs, they don't even know where to find them even though the link is at the top of every page. We are working on a solution. They don't use the search engine (whose link is next to the FAQ link) and ask the same question over and over.
I guess it must be some kind of lazyness spreading out, and it seems to be highly contagious

[Roy Ben Ami]

again the laziness?
i for one, tend to attribute these things to innocent mistakes.
most people fix their name after you tell them.
i think they log in with the wring name in he first place because the registraion is confusing.
sure there is the page that says the policy, BUT the form itself dictates otherise (it tell u to use 2 names for the real name and 1 for the nick).
i got confused there as well.
my suggestion is to modify the form itself to be more understandable (maybe even to allow only 2 names at each) and then save u trouble remonding almost every new user about his name.
same goes for searching. almost all forums have this problem, and there is a really no way around it for the "new" greenhorns. they just dont know better. im sure most experienced users use the search first.
as a last note: i actually think that unless a question is a really common one , people should post their question anyway, if they wont i wouldnt be able to hang around here and reply to people , as well as the bartenders (wchi im sure we all like to do)

[Valentin Crettaz]

again the laziness?

I tell you, it's all over

I think they log in with the wring name in he first place because the registraion is confusing....
I got confused there as well.

That's why you gave in three names ??? Just kidding, just kidding
Well, well, well, everybody on the Internet has at one time or another utilized a search engine. So why not using our search engine too?
Finally, concerning that login-name-display-name problem, I don't see how "use a first name a space and a last name" is confusing, maybe we should figure out a way of writing it in short abbreviations, right Roy ?? Kidding again
Well, let's forget about that.

[Roy Ben Ami]

actually it is my real name
anyway, what i meant Valentin was this:
Login Name:
Publicly Displayed Name:
If you do not provide a name, the login (user) name you listed above will be shown publicly. Make sure this name follows our naming policy.

above is the registration form. note that only one of the names has the naming policy advice.
granted, its the publicly name
but i know from experience that it confuses a bit.
anyway, i know it makes me look dumb, but im sure it got several other people too ( i even read 2 that mentioned the same confusion).

and as u said Valentin, all the stuff i write is in respect to u and the other bartenders. i have gr8 admiration for your work in creating and maintaining the best java forum on the net.
(notice the gr8 short form )

[Valentin Crettaz]

i know it makes me look dumb

No it doesn't, we are aware of the confusion it creates.

notice the gr8 short form

LOL

[Rob Ross]

I think if someone new finds this site and starts reading it, it is unlikely this is the FIRST message board they have ever used. It's possible, but unlikely.
SO, this means, like most message boards, for a short time you LURK. You read posts quietly, and figure out what the "culture" is like there. Then when you think you can abide by the local customs, you start posting.
Even if you only lurked for a single day, if you are reading threads, especially here in this forum, you are going to read a thread by someone named "Bubba" <insert your own improper name there>, and then a post or two later, Valentin or some other bartender will be asking Bubba to read the naming policy.
I find it unfathomable that anyone could fail to notice a post like this before they register, and still log in as "Bubba." Yet they do.

[Rick Reumann]

I agree people are lazy and should test code out before posting, etc. I do take issue with the registration process. I develop internet applications for a living and this whole problem of having to have Valentin always post "Please follow the naming policy and change your name" could be remedied by a little less laziness on the developers part. The problem is not the the users are lazy, but the user interface is very poor.
First off people are used to blowing through forms on the internet. Call it lazy if you want but most intro pages are the yada yada pages so I'm sure most people skip right over that initial page where it says "Please register with a name as FIRST LAST" or whatever it says. Not saying that excuses people, but lets be honest we all fill out tons of forms and when there is something you need to know about the form put little asterisks or put it on the top of the form page itself (where you see the other info right now). It's the warning emphasis on that first page that is all off. To me that first page looks like one of those "agreement" terms lists that we all see and 99% of us just scroll to the bottom and click agree. It's not that we are lazy, but we've seen them a million times before... you won't copy our work, we have the right to kill you, etc..etc. The designers should have created this in such a way that it didn't look like your run-of-the mill agreement form. I know they have the blurb about "make sure this follows are naming policy" next to the input box on the form but why not just simply provide a little example there like "first last" rather than having to be reminded to click on the link to find out about the naming policy.
Secondly, and I think more importantly, it's a piece of cake to add some javascript to remedy the whole situation. In this case I think the developers are more to blame than the users here in regards to laziness. Not only does it take a few minutes to write the javascript to check the login before submission, but why would you ever let it actually get submitted to a database being in the wrong format? That doesn't send a great message about the conern for proper design, etc. on a site that deals with that as one of it's topics.
Whoever wrote a lot of the form content, I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. I'm just trying to say it's not ALL the users fault in regard to the registration name situation. If the naming convention policy is so important I believe a lot can be done to make it more enforcable than the way it's done now (-- Valentin having to get on to people : ).
If they want they can feel free to use the code below to validate the login name. Anyone can cut and paste this into an editor and run it in a browser and see that it does the job. I think adding these 15 lines of code is worth it. This just checks for one space but could be modified for any.

 
<SCRIPT>
function checkLoginName() {
    var loginName = document.myForm.loginName.value;
    // this will get rid of leading spaces 
    while (loginName.substring(0,1) == ' ') 
        loginName = loginName.substring(1, loginName.length);
    // this will get rid of trailing spaces 
    while (loginName.substring(loginName.length-1,loginName.length) == ' ')
        loginName = loginName.substring(0, loginName.length-1);
    //now count other spaces. Should just find one if valid.
    var spaceCount = 0;
    for (var i = 0; i<loginName.length;i++) {
        var ch = loginName.charAt(i);
        if ( ch == ' ' ) {
            spaceCount++;
        }
    } 
     
    if ( spaceCount != 1 ) {
        alert("Login name must be entered as 'FIRST LAST'");
        document.myForm.loginName.focus();
        document.myForm.loginName.select();
        return false;
    }
}
</SCRIPT>
<FORM NAME = "myForm" onSubmit="return checkLoginName()">
<INPUT TYPE="text" NAME="loginName" VALUE=""><BR><BR>
<INPUT TYPE="submit">
</FORM>

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Rick Reumann ]

[bill williams]

val,
I have a suggestion. Why dont you just impose the naming policy when they register? instead of asking them to do so afterward? The reason some of them (including me ) do not follow your name policy is that few web sites use full name as user name, and sometime they just dont want to reveal their real names.
Regarding to the search function above, I dont feel it is user friendly; it refresh every second during searching.
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: bill williams ]
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: bill williams ]

[Valentin Crettaz]

I've submitted your ideas to the Javaranch board of sheriffs

[Rick Reumann]

Originally posted by bill williams:
The reason some of them (including me ) do not follow your name policy is that few web sites use full name as user name, and sometime they just dont want to reveal their real names.

Yes, I forgot to mention that Bill (or whatever your real name is: ). The Ranch shouldn't expect some mistakes when users who are filling out tons of usernames and passwords on the web usually with usernames having to be in the form of a word 'without' any spaces. To not check for this upon submission doesn't mean the user was lazy.
Also even though the link is there about "make sure you've read our naming policy," I will bet most people think it's going to be this long thing about not using vulgar nicknames, etc.
Overall, I absoultely love the ranch and the people on it. Personally though for a bulletin board forum I think it's really pretty poor. I brought it up in the other forum but just got shot down. Of my top list of issues...
1) Should be a way to be able to receive threads that you choose by email. Currently the only option is to be notified by email when you are the initiater of a thread. How many of us post a reply or an answer to a thread and would love to be able to find out when it was resonded to. I know this isn't the fault of the Ranch since they are tied to the third party software that supplies the forum.
2) I think HTML formatting should be turned back on in this forum. Nobody really abused and with html formatting I could make sure the code pasted was readable in IE. Yes, I know you could go up to view and choose a larger view but that makes ALL the text larger.
3) If HTML formatting was allowed, you could put <PRE> tags around your code meaning anyone cutting and pasting could have the format as it was written. I'd post code like <PRE STYLE="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"> cod ehere </PRE> this would make the code readable by all and cut and pasteable to all editors without having to click on edit a message and cut from there.
4) As much as people suggest to do a search for topics with the search utility, it simply is not that good and since this whole forum is html based it's also very slow to have to open up a link etc.
Overall, I really wish the minds that are all here would bring this forum to a mailing list sponsered by listserv or something. They have a great searching through archives and most decent email programs will sort messages by thread so you will still have your same thread views. Feedback would be much faster and easier.
I doubt the above will happen but my second idea would be to build this in JSP. Ok, I'm biases since I do it for my job, but I'd be happy to lend my time doing it. If it was done in JSP it would be fully customizable and there would be none of this "well you'll have to ask infopop about it since they run the software for the board." Also what better a way to promote Java than to see it in action:) Doing it in JSP we could implement anything we want.
Just me worthless cents:)

[Rob Ross]

What, Rick, you're suggesting a website geared towards java development should actually use java technologies for the site?
YOU'RE CRAZY MAN!
But other than that one little quirk, I totally agree with your last post about everything. Email notification, better handling of code text, searching, etc.

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

2) I think HTML formatting should be turned back on in this forum. Nobody really abused and with html formatting I could make sure the code pasted was readable in IE. Yes, I know you could go up to view and choose a larger view but that makes ALL the text larger.

You can also change your default IE fonts which helps considerably.

3) If HTML formatting was allowed, you could put <PRE> tags around your code meaning anyone cutting and pasting could have the format as it was written. I'd post code like <PRE STYLE="font-size: 12pt; color: blue;"> cod ehere </PRE> this would make the code readable by all and cut and pasteable to all editors without having to click on edit a message and cut from there.

The problem was not that people were abusing the html, but that people were having problems posting their code. If people don't even use the CODE tags that have buttons, why do you think they will use PRE tags? The main problem was when the code contained a for loop or any < or > sign in the code and also contained parentheses. UBB will not allow you to post a post containing both of these. This is why we had to turn off html in the areas where code is posted (like this Programer Certification Study forum for example).

I would also like to find a way around the diminished font size within the CODE and/or PRE tags (the size is diminished within PRE tags as well).

I doubt the above will happen but my second idea would be to build this in JSP.

Almost all of the pages on JavaRanch other than those in the Big Moose Saloon are JSPs.
[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Marilyn deQueiroz ]

[R K Singh]

here is some tips how to ask questions.
Its good ... but we should keep in mind that these tips are for professionals. if one follows them then ... we will have very less que.
and as Rob(I think) said in some thread that then there would be no need to run this forum as all questions are available in SERACH...
We should respect newbies and care for guys who has less time
Agree on this point... Question should be complete in all sense .. mean what is error .. what ver/platform using .. ..URL of mock/que ID....etc. info should be given.
[ February 10, 2002: Message edited by: ravish kumar ]

[Madhav Lakkapragada]

We should respect newbies and care for guys who has less time
Speaking for myself.....
Actually, I like newbie qstns. But I have to see some effort from them. I (as well as most I have seen) go to the extent of writing custom code to adress the specific qstn asked in a post and demonstrate the point.
But sometimes I do get very disturbed and depressed by the fact that the "newbie" doesn't even want to compile the code. This is not limited to newbie's alone.
It also depresses me when someone comes along and asks for a LINK to the API. We have an FAQ, that is the first place to look. You see everyone who comes to forums like this has a goal and so their time is important. We should respect their time. We shouldn't expect them to go search the web and give us the links that we need.

Normally, I don't express such opinions, but hey sometimes its better to vent out than avoid a forum that you like to hang out....don't you think?

For what its worth...........
- satya
[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Madhav Lakkapragada ]

[R K Singh]

But sometimes I do get very disturbed and depressed by the fact that the "newbie" doesn't even want to compile the code. This is not limited to newbie's alone.

we should have some acronym like CTFC(Compile The F@#$ing Code) to answer such question which are here without prior work.
Yes it will be harsh but it will help him.


It also depresses me when someone comes along and asks for a LINK to the API. We have an FAQ, that is the first place to look. You see everyone who comes to forums like this has a goal and so their time is important. We should respect their time. We shouldn't expect them to go search the web and give us the links that we need.

I think we have something like... STFW

Normally, I don't express such opinions, but hey sometimes its better to vent out than avoid a forum that you like to hang out....don't you think?
For what its worth...........

Very much agree with you ...
I think V should also have a link to Posting Etiquette, where one can find the tips for posting ..