H1-B activism or hope things get better?

[Jason Menard]

From the Jargon File. You can find the Jargon FIle all over the Internet, that's just one mirror.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Vladan Radovanovic:
So are you saying that Luke posted some inflamatory comments and never continued discussion? What post exactly are you reading

Ummm... I never called anyone a troll in this conversation. I'm merely providing the correct usage and refuting one poster's characterization of an individual who used the term. But look, if you've been around usenet and various forums, you know what a troll is without having to look it up and determine whether or not a person's behavior conforms to an exact definition. YOu recognize a troll when you see one. ALthough in this case, as I stated, I am not personally referring to anyone as a troll, if that's how another poster sees it, I see no reason to argue a minute point. Just get on with the conversation.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

If it please the forum, please accept my humble apology for the inappropriate use of the Tword.
Back to the issue at hand. I won free tickets to the baseball game here a few weeks back. They have updated an old con game there. On the fancy scoreboard they hide a baseball under a hat. They shuffle three hats around in a big hurry and after a short time, the crowd is to guess what hat the ball is under. I think the generic term for the scam is shell game.
In the near recent past IT industry forces went to congress and lobbied hard. They made claims like we are having to turn business away because we just can't get enough skilled help in the domestic labor pool. They were successfull in getting congress to raise the H1-B quota from 65K to 185K ( please excuse slight error in the numbers, I don't remember them precisely ). Matloff's paper is entitled something like Critical IT Talent Shortage
Now a few years have gone by an the ecomony has suffered some setbacks. The story is now American labor can't compete in the world market.
We need to keep the H1-Bs to save jobs in the overall economy and save America's bacon.
Sorry, I had to sneeze and have lost track of which lie we were discussing. Which one is it today, Mr. Kolin? I'm anxious to discuss both, but in practicality American Labor is not Competetive should be a new thread.
[ September 09, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

[Mark Herschberg]

"sim sim",
Welcome to JavaRanch.
PROPER NAMES ARE NOW REQUIRED
Please look carefully at official naming policy at javaranch & reregister yourself with proper first & last name, with a space between them. Please adhere to official naming policy & help maintain the decorum of the forum. The naming policy can be found at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp
--Mark

[sim sim]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

That was the correct word, and the misunderstanding is all yours I'm afraid. A troll is a common term, which originated in the usenet newsgroups and has widespread use in web forums as well, which is to indicate an individual who posts inflamatory comments merely to get a rise out of people, with no intentions of carrying on a serious discussion. It's not "low-level language", it's common parlance. If you don't recognize it as such, that is not his problem, it's yours.

What ever you think the meaning of the word to you, you must have kept it to yourself. The other gentleman was getting offended and repetedly asking not to use the word. Thats the signal, U must stop using that word. Instead you were using it still. A some body said, I should not expect much form an average american, sheriff or what ever

BTW there might be some spelling mistakes or grammer mistakes, pl forgie me for that, i am not very good at american (english ??)

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by sim sim:
What ever you think the meaning of the word to you, you must have kept it to yourself. The other gentleman was getting offended and repetedly asking not to use the word. Thats the signal, U must stop using that word. Instead you were using it still. A some body said, I should not expect much form an average american, sheriff or what ever

It's amazing how many untruths you managed to squeeze into this post. And you top it off with an insult to Americans.
The word "troll" is in universal use on the internet. It does not mean "a stupid person". Luke did not specifically ask not to be called a "troll". He simply denied being one.

[Mapraputa Is]

Luke did not specifically ask not to be called a "troll". He simply denied being one.
He did ask not to be called a "troll".
Luke Kolin, posted September 06, 2002 04:43 PM:
"Rufus, let's stop calling people trolls and start working to find a real solution."
posted September 06, 2002 06:30 PM, this time responding to Thomas posts:
"Please stop calling me a troll and answer the questions I've posed"
Guys, why not to apologize and move on?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
posted September 06, 2002 06:30 PM, this time responding to Thomas posts:
"Please stop calling me a troll and answer the questions I've posed"

And I have not called him a troll since that post.

[Mapraputa Is]

Content offense negotiation!
This should work...

[Abadula Joshi]

Are you guys really so bored everyday ???
This message board is for adults who want to discuss some meaningful topics. So, everybody should stay gentle, mature, avoid using offensive words or 'ambiguously offensive' words. Paul, Personally I don't see why you have to use the word 'troll', don't lie to yourself, you were trying to focus on the negative mening of this word. This doesn't make you look professional. However if I were the person who was called troll, I wouldn't be angry because it is meaningless to get involved in such non-sense argument.
I hope this board can select some more mature, gentle and decent people as sheriff. We don't want a childish sheriff who has a bunch of "troll"
American followers.

[Thomas Paul]

Over the last two years I have answered literally thousands of questions from people preparing for the certification. I have written 9 articles for JavaRanch. I have reviewed more than 30 books. I have stayed up until 3 in the morning to try to get Jive working so we can switch to the new forum software. Perhaps I am not the kind of sheriff you want. Perhaps you only want sheriffs that agree with you. But I would be willing to bet you are in the minority.

[Abadula Joshi]

Over the last two years I have answered literally thousands of questions from people preparing for the certification. I have written 9 articles for JavaRanch. I have reviewed more than 30 books. I have stayed up until 3 in the morning to try to get Jive working so we can switch to the new forum software. Perhaps I am not the kind of sheriff you want. Perhaps you only want sheriffs that agree with you. But I would be willing to bet you are in the minority.

Who said I only want a sheriff to agree with me ?
Sheriff can disagree on anything. My point is how the sheriff present his opinions. Keeping calling others "troll" (only in your heart you know if you are using a positive or negative word, right ?) and "intelligently" defend
it --- This doesn't sound good. If you feel what you have done in the past two years made you be more qualified to do it, I am sad.

[Abadula Joshi]

Actually, paul, you know what, sometime most of us happen to use some overreacted words. This happens to everybody and it is normal. Sometimes when your emotion and opinion get so strong it is possible to choose some word that you won't use it on the next day. If I did that, I would just say -- "I am sorry if that word hurt you. I could have picked a better word.", this will just make others respect you more.
Got it ? I really have no intension to get involved in it, just some suggestion.

[Thomas Paul]

So are you now apologizing for saying that I am "childish" and for saying that I am not "decent" or "mature"? And are you apologizing for saying that you don't want a sheriff like me?
All this for one little word that simply means a person who argues for the sake of arguing. :roll:
[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Rufus BugleWeed]

The issue of supply and demand for programming talent in the US is one the legilature should stay out of. The American free enterprise system is not one where central planning by the legislature is called for.
There was never a shortage of programming talent. The industry duped the legislature into giving the industry a subsidy. The legislature needs to end the subsidy and the H1-B's need to go home. The industry has used the subsidy to fatten their pockets at the expense of labor.
If the legislature thinks America needs more programmers, why don't they budget more funding for education? Special interest money has bought access, and access has rewarded special interest.
It's time to end the H1-B program.

[Jason Menard]

Abadala, the obvious fact you are not familiar with normal internet speak is not anyone's problem but your own. People have tried to tell you what the word means but you continue to keep crying over your misunderstanding. Mr. Kolin knows what the word means, Thomas knows what the word means, everyone else who has spent more than two weeks on a discussion board such as this knows what the word means given the context it was used in.
Perhaps you have never heard of Slashdot. It's only one of the most heavily trafficed sites o nthe internet. Here is an article, called On the Subject of Trolls where they refer to "trolls" quite a bit. If you'll notice, the 624 people who replied to that article have no problem understanding what a troll is. Here's another, called The Ordinary Slashdot User Answers.
The point is, everyone knows what a troll is except you and one or two other people who have blundered into the online world blissfully unaware that it is a living breathing entity with its own set of customs, courtesies, and even its own language. If you misunderstand something, that is fine. When the point is clarified for you, just apologize and drop it already.
adults who want to discuss some meaningful topics
So far this is the only thread that you've taken part in. If there is something that you have decided is meaningful that you would like to discuss, by all means move to the proper thread or start one of your own. As far as the adults part... I don't think you are actually in a position to be casting aspersions.
However if I were the person who was called troll, I wouldn't be angry because it is meaningless to get involved in such non-sense argument.
Which, by the way, you weren't. The person accused of trolling knows what the word means, unlike yourself.
hope this board can select some more mature, gentle and decent people as sheriff. We don't want a childish sheriff
You sir are a model of maturity and decency.
who has a bunch of "troll" American followers.
... and an anti-American to boot. There's a surprise. :roll:
[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Abadula Joshi]

So are you now apologizing for saying that I am "childish" and for saying that I am not "decent" or "mature"? And are you apologizing for saying that you don't want a sheriff like me?

I am totally disappointed at you. You took away the final tiny piece of respect people had for you... I just gave you an opportunity to prevent your own image from keeping being damaged, but apparently you didn't care.
End of conersation, enough is enough.

[sonny kher]

I have seen the boom at its peak (1999-2000) and beleive me companies did indeed feel there weren't enough qualified people available.
Nobody knew then, that the bubble was going to burst, that the comapnies and CEO's promising double digit growth were misleading them (I am sure a large chunk of industry didn't realize this themselves that's why it collapsed overnight).
Foreign workers then, were providing the much needed liquidity in the market. That is a lot of micro-economics that I'm sure I don't understand, but even at a broader level, if all americans were sure to get jobs (a very very high level of guarantee, that is what ya'll want...americans over everybody) do you think folks here will try and better themselves? in the absence of any competition will you see people burning the midnight oil in continually improving themselves, trying to get certified, attending part time graduate school while they work?
Its a globally competitive job market now, how does the presence of few thousand foreign workers affect the job market for American citizens?
Nobody saw the bust, but maybe you'll don't see the impending boom (hehe:-)
I am not supporting any one party here, and I am sure both sides are making some valid points. One thing I do understand is, when the economy was booming Congress was very quick to raise the visa quotas (thats what they call it right?) and now that things aren't looking so good and the local workforce has matured, why isn't it cutting back?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:

I am totally disappointed at you. You took away the final tiny piece of respect people had for you... I just gave you an opportunity to prevent your own image from keeping being damaged, but apparently you didn't care.
End of conersation, enough is enough.

I am so heartbroken that I disappointed you. I'll just hang my head in shame.

[Mark Herschberg]

Let's all remember to try to keep the postings about the discussion of visa issues and not on our personal feelings towards each other. This has always been a heated topic, and I've been proud that we have been discussing it for so long with some decorum, as opposed to the prior discussions in MD. I hope I won't be disappointed. iI you see postings out of line, please point it out to me in a personal message, and hopefully we can prevent further flanning these sparks into flames.
--Mark

[Thomas Paul]

It seems to be OK. There is a strange amount of anti-Americanism in here but nothing too serious.

[Abadula Joshi]

Originally posted by Thomas--- It seems to be OK. There is a strange amount of anti-Americanism in here but nothing too serious.

Please don't spread this kind unhealthy message.
I don't think somebody should summarize it as "anti-Americanism" or "anti-NonAmericanism".
The debate here is just focusing on H1B visa. No "anti-H1B" person should be viewed as "anti-NonAmericanism" or having hatred of non-Americans. Similarly, other people against this "anti-H1B" should not be considered as "anti-Americans".
When an American mentioned "immigrants" in his sentence or when a H1B mentioned "Americans" in his sentence, they were just refering to those individuals whose opinion is different from theirs. it doesn't mean the American hates immigrants or the foreigner hates Americans.
Nobody should darw the conclusion quoted unless he/she has that abnormal bias in his/her mind.
Again, I hope everyone could focus on the issue itself. keeping post such "there is anti-Americanism" message will only aggravate the situation. What do you think, Mark ?

[Thomas Paul]

Abadula, are you ever going to actually post "on the issue" or are you just going to subject us to more of the same?

[Abadula Joshi]

Have you guys ever watched "A beautiful mind" ? Have you guys ever read what's John Nash's economic theory ? I suggest you read it before you engage in real economy related discussion topics...

[Paul Villangca]

Lol, seems to me there are some pretty big egos clashing around here. now, back to the topic...
About outsourcing software jobs overseas, I can say that it's probably not as small as Mr. Matloff says it is. I'm living proof. The company I work for has a contract with a top US company, I don't know the specifics, sorry. We're a fairly sized bunch, around 100 people. We are also competing with an Indian company in the same line of work as us. About wages, well, it's what you would expect for an entry-level job around here (I'd be placed in the lower middle class), but waaay short of what I'd get in a similar job in the US (even taking cost of living into account.)
On the other hand, I find it hard to understand how kicking the H-1Bs out would actually hurt the US economy as a whole, since even though Americans prolly won't get 100% of the jobs vacated by the H-1Bs (due to outsourcing etc.), they're sure to get at least some of them, which means less unemployed peeps.
I guess I find this topic interesting because I also wanna get a job in the US (in the Third World, who doesn't?). But if I do, it will be through an MS, not through H-1B. Now if I could only get a scholarship...

[Paul Villangca]

Hi Abdula,
I think what Paul meant was your 'all-knowing' attitude, chiding everybody for being 'childish' and 'personal', while at the same time not contributing anything meaningful to the topic at hand, and attacking people personally yourself.
You think this topic isn't worth discussing. I find it very interesting, though. In fact, I've never even heard of this H-1B business till I snooped around here at Jobs Discussion (and maybe MD), and I've read every single post of this thread, even though its only relevance to me is that it's just another option for me to get work in the US (not anymore though, my ego won't let me.)
Instead of flaming others, why don't you use the 'economic theory' you've learned and say something relevant to the topic at hand?

[Sach Baat]

Originally posted by Paul Villangca:

I guess I find this topic interesting because I also wanna get a job in the US (in the Third World, who doesn't?). But if I do, it will be through an MS, not through H-1B. Now if I could only get a scholarship...

I dont know what you mean by this.Getting a MS with a scholarship does not mean you can work in the US. You still need the H1-B to work in the US

[Tim Cerillo]

Originally posted by Paul Villangca:
I guess I find this topic interesting because I also wanna get a job in the US (in the Third World, who doesn't?). But if I do, it will be through an MS, not through H-1B. Now if I could only get a scholarship...

After graduating from a U.S. school, you still need H1B visa to work. You might think that taking a Master's degree will allow you to work here.

[Abadula Joshi]

posted by Paul -- I think what Paul meant was your 'all-knowing' attitude, chiding everybody for being 'childish' and 'personal', while at the same time not contributing anything meaningful to the topic at hand, and attacking people personally yourself.
You think this topic isn't worth discussing. I find it very interesting, though. In fact, I've never even heard of this H-1B business till I snooped around here at Jobs Discussion (and maybe MD), and I've read every single post of this thread, even though its only relevance to me is that it's just another option for me to get work in the US (not anymore though, my ego won't let me.)
Instead of flaming others, why don't you use the 'economic theory' you've learned and say something relevant to the topic at hand?

That's a totally different topic then. It is not supposed to be on this board. To put it very short, Nash's theory was based on our computer science founder John Von Neuman's game theory.
The book "The Theory of Games and Economic Behavior" is a classical book.
The main difference is Nash successfully applied it to the non-cooperative economic system and concluded with the famous Nash Balance. During the process of reaching its next balancing point, a lot of global economic parameter will be adjusted significantly or non-significantly, but if you see a drop locally, it doesn't mean it is bad globally. If we enforce external disturbance to 'improve' the non-cooperative game 'rule', it may improve locally, but may not be good for the global. The 'player' in the non-cooperative system will adjust themselves during the process of reaching next balance point.

[Pradip Bhat]

Abadula Joshi, Is that your real name? When internet started ,there were many like:
1)Ram Abdulla D'souza
2)Hari Chang Khan

[Javed Sardar]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It's amazing how many untruths you managed to squeeze into this post. And you top it off with an insult to Americans.
The word "troll" is in universal use on the internet. It does not mean "a stupid person". Luke did not specifically ask not to be called a "troll". He simply denied being one.

Hey I was posting as Sim Sim lately as my name has been blocked 'cause you thought it is not a valid name. All right. I have chaned it now and this is my real name.
Hey Thomas, I have no intentions of insulting Americans, I have many american friends.
Now coming to the next point, I agree that this has nothing to do with the topic being discussed, but people accuse me of being untruthful and I cannot keep quite.

posted September 06, 2002 04:43 PM
Rufus, let's stop calling people trolls and start working to find a real solution
(By Sheriff Thomas)posted September 06, 2002 05:45 PM
Two tests prove that a nurse is competent! You are a troll.
In his post dated, September 06, 2002 04:43 PM, he has asked not to call people troll. I agree that he did mention Rufus's name but it dosent mean that he dose not like to be called as troll by Rufus and wants all others to call him as troll.
On September 06, 2002 05:45 PM, you have addressed him as troll and you accuse me of being untruthful?? I have no word to comment
:roll:

[Thomas Paul]

Javed, do you have anything meaningful to say or or are you just going to continue whining?
By the way, your name was blocked because you were warnind about 10 times to change it and chose to ignore the requests of the bartenders and sheriffs.
[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Abadula Joshi]

rahul rege, Abadula is not my real name. I don't think we have to use real name, do we ?
Anyway, I think the reason for today's programmer job market problem is the IT field trend. IT is a relatively new career that started booming in the last 5 years or so in USA. As any new field/career, it shows its trenmendous growth potential and advantage in the early booming age, just like 50 years ago mechanical engineeering was hot, 25 years ago electrical engineering was hot. This new and hot field will attract many many people, meanwhile many companies would invest large amount of money on it. Thus the booming was created. Howevere there has never been a global monitor or control system to optimally calculate what will be the most suitable rate it should groe and to what extend it should grow to, based on the weight of this field in our whole career fields. Companies are greedy so they want as maximum growth as possible (that's why some don't care about using cheap laor), people are overthrilled so they want to change to this field. There should be a saturated or balanced point for this IT field. But the overgrowth (bubble) quickly grows beyond that point and starts break when the demand and feed doesn't match each other, many people will lose jobs. H1B does take some jobs from Americans, but even there was not such H1B, the IT field in USA would still grow quickly enough and would still grow beyond the saturated point, it is inevitable, eventually some Americans would still lose jobs, the only difference is without H1B, this may happen couple or few months later or this IT.
Once this field experiences this change (up and down), a dynamical balance is reached, they companies started re-evaluate the market and gradually the market goes to smooth. After that, they wouldn't desperately look for H1B any more. Just like right now, H1B has dropped to so small number. For instance, did we hear a lot of H1B coming here for mechnical engineers positions ?
No, because that's a field has experienced that balance a few decades ago. Why this time IT was the field gets hit hardest in the recession ?
So my question is: Could we prevent the overgrowth of IT (forget about H1B) ? If we could we certainly could avoid today's problem, if we couldn't, today's job market problem is just a issue of when it happens.
Some communist countries use government controlled economic system (like former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc) to 'control' the global country-wide economic behaviour. But it all turned to fail. Karl Max (spelling ?) theory
didn't prove to be right.
Sometimes the recession and lot of other social , natural events are truly hard to predict. Some people joke that economist are people who never predict things correctly. Why ? There is a book called "Ubiquity" wriiten by Mark Buchanan. he viewed these events (like war, earthquake, stock market, recession) from a different scientific angel and it is quite interesting. These events are hard to use any currently available model (mathmatics or whatever) to predict.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Abadula Joshi:
Some communist countries use government controlled economic system (like former Soviet Union, China, North Korea, etc) to 'control' the global country-wide economic behaviour. But it all turned to fail. Karl Max (spelling ?) theory
didn't prove to be right.

All governments place controls on markets. The problem is that labor is not something that can be competetive in the global market, between developed and less developed countries, so therefore regulations are required in order to not destroy one market and inflate another.

[Anthony Villanueva]

If I understand it correctly, IMHO the issue seems to be more of a matter of national pride (even justice) than economics. Being a US citizen ought to count for something. It should entail with it certain privileges and advantages non-citizens should not have, including preferential job treatment, which should be enforced by the government. This includes encouraging US businesses to hire qualified US nationals instead.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

That's close to my feeling Anthony. I think my ancestors, and I believe it myself, think we labor on this earth in part for our children. Maybe this is racism, I'm not sure.
I don't think the Indians, Chinese, Africans, or Arabs have had any less time to build up a civilization than western europeans. Other countries have restrictive immigration policies.
Let me repeat, I think my complaints with the H1-B system are two. It makes the age discimination problem worse. The H1-B system creates defacto indentured servants.
I would feel much better about reworking the immigration system than having to compete with defacto indentured servants.
From the view point of a capitalist, I think the buyers should have no advantage over the sellers in the marketplace. The H1-B program is a subsidy to the buyers.
Once again the government could spend more on education. The industry could spend more on training.
I don't believe a person loses the ability to be a productive programmer at age 35.

[Abadula Joshi]

Originally posted by Rufus -- I don't believe a person loses the ability to be a productive programmer at age 35.

I agree with you. Let's temporarily focus on this age issue and assume there is not H1B visa involved. However, The problem is: If a person is 40+ and he is still looking for a programmer position (suppose he has been a programmer for 15 years), the company may prefer to choose a 30 year old guy who has 5 years experience because that young guy usually asks for less money. But in many other fields, usually the older you physically get, the more money people would like to pay you because your experience will not faded away. In Programming, languages change too quickly, so although a 40+ guy has accumulated lot of experience, the company may not really appreciate it (I am not saying the company is doing the wise thing). Of course if this 40+ guy applies for tech manager or architect or DBA type position, the situation will be different. When your age grows to > 40, you shouldn't always stuck with programmer position.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Abadula, I've noticed your command of English is very good. Your inability to command it comes and goes.
Would you, by chance, be posting in this thread under different identities?
I stole my current signature off a poster at the art museum. There's another line on the poster - "If you think your in control of your life, you're crazy".
Many other professions call the forties - the earnings years.
I believe this is another problem caused by the US government. They've made age discrimination against the law for people in their 40's. So the companies want to get rid of a guy at 35 and hire a new college grad or a person with just a few years experience. The laws were written to be very hard to enforce.
Isn't it strange that the average H1-B entering the workforce in USA is 28 years old?

Let's temporarily focus on this age issue and assume there is not H1B visa involved.

It seems your agenda is to focus on non H1-B issues. It is clear you want to clog up this thread with dilatory personal attacks.
[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Rufus Bugleweed ]

[Javed Sardar]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Javed, do you have anything meaningful to say or or are you just going to continue whining?
By the way, your name was blocked because you were warnind about 10 times to change it and chose to ignore the requests of the bartenders and sheriffs.
[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

Hey Thomas,
This will be my last post in this thread (probably), so pl bear with me.
Why do you think I am whining, all I did is to point that you are wrong hurting other by calling troll(what ever may be the meaning). Instead of accepting it you made it an issue. It would be more sober if you would have admitted it.
I got warning 10 times before my name was blocked, this is what you said, right. I can see only one warning message in this thread against my name. By the time I saw it, my name was already blocked.
BTW, why is it blocked, I am not compaining, its all right with me if it is blocked. Is it blocked 'cause it is not my real name? Can you tell me how many people use real names here.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Javed Sardar:
Why do you think I am whining, all I did is to point that you are wrong hurting other by calling troll(what ever may be the meaning). Instead of accepting it you made it an issue. It would be more sober if you would have admitted it.

It would have been more "sober" if you had simply ignored it since it had nothing to do with you and moved on.

Originally posted by Javed Sardar:

I got warning 10 times before my name was blocked, this is what you said, right. I can see only one warning message in this thread against my name. By the time I saw it, my name was already blocked.
BTW, why is it blocked, I am not compaining, its all right with me if it is blocked. Is it blocked 'cause it is not my real name? Can you tell me how many people use real names here.

On this very page we see that you are warned by Mark and the very next post is you using the "Sim Sim" name. When you registered you agreed to follow the javaRanch naming standards which requires you to use your real name or at the very least a name that is not obviously ficticious.
[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]