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Clash of Civilizations!!

 
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Is it a weekly or monthly subscription How do you renew
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Against forced conversion? And you define "forced conversion" as anything that makes people convert! The fact is that you don't get to decide what "forced" conversion is. It's none of your business.


None of my business? Who is going to pay for it later? Not you.. Look at the religious problems in India. I will reply in detail later. I am against the missionaries who is forcing people to convert, not against the people.
 
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blah-blah christianity....yada-yada hinduism....
Hey, look, this is new and improved automatic cow milking machine! Buy one - get one free!
Is there a reason why everything taken on faith attracts so many BS artists? Because their lies can't be proven, duh!
So the point of arguing is?... :roll: Maybe it is in itself clash of civilizations?
Living in a country that is half European, half Asian made me think that Westerners might never understand Asians, and vise versa.
Anyhow, continue on
Shura
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

No, I am basing that in part on the words of most of
your countrymen who are participating in this thread.
You yourselves indicate that you are representative of
the general feeling in your country. The many
incidents I have pointed out only serve as highlights.
I of course hope that in fact some of you here are
not representative of the majority of your population
and that despite some evidence to the country, most of
you do in fact embrace these values, as most of your
former countrymen who are now Americans seem
to.


I just expressed my feeling/experience about forced
conversion by chiristian missionaries in my country. I
am not representative of anyone. That doesnt give anyone
the rights to generalize the whole population as
unsecular and barbaric. I am not against chrisitanity
and Islam. Lots of good hindus gave their life to save
innocent minorities. Lots of minorities gave their
life to defend my(our) country.
Well Thomas Paul, you can THINK the other person is fool if you dont like his point of view. That is called freedom of thought. No one is going to stop you to THINK like that. But there is a difference between THINK and ACT. You can not say I am fool because you dont like my point. You can not hurt me because of your ACT. That is barbaric. I hope you will understand the difference between THINK and ACT.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The religious problems in India are created by people like you who are intolerant to other religious beliefs.


Well I can take it. Atleast, now, you didnt say it is because of the hindus in general. And, man, do you really read my posts? Or I am not making my point clear? Did I ever say that I am against anyone's thought or faith? And, yea right... christians and other religious persons are very peace loving persons. Only the Hindus are fanatics. I have posted some links about problems in North eastern part of India. If you really care find out the truth, you can search on the web about it or ask me. I am not forcing you though and I wont hurt you by saying what I am thinking about you.


So answer me this... What exactly is a "forced" conversion? What should be done to missionaries who use "forced" conversion? Can someone convert and not be "forced"? What percentage of conversions in India do you believe are "forced"?


Ok now answer me this, a person goes to a poor family and say "I will give you 500Rs per month. In return, you should change your religion and come to church every sunday, and spread the word of Jesus. If you dont agree with this agreement, I am not going to give you the money. It is up to you to decide." Tell me what do you call this? Bribary? Charity? Mission? Helping people? Forcing people? Well.. I am not expecting any other words from you, but please try to answer about what do you think about that person? That is enough for me. I will end this dicussion.
I dont have to prove anyone that our socity is a tolerant socity. If you want to find out, come and see it in India. If you dont, then , there is something called "freedom of thought".
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
You apparently don't understand what freedom is. I can indeed say that you are a fool because I don't like your point. I can say that your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry if I feel like it. I can't punch you in the mouth because I disagree with you. I hope you understand the difference between speech and physical violence.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]


well.. I dont know what socity you belong. Is that what they define as freedom? What is the diffence between you and the "rebels" who killed the missionaries? They hurt people physically and your socity hurt people mentally. And, I dont want to come down to your level and saying anyting about your wife or sister or daughter. I expect you will have that same decency and engage in a civilized discussion.
And, You are talking about speech and violence, I am talking about THINK(freedom of thought) and ACT(hurting other people by your action, mental or physical). You still didnt get it, dont you?
 
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
And, I dont want to come down to your level and saying anyting about your wife or sister or daughter. I expect you will have that same decency and engage in a civilized discussion.


I can say that your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry if I feel like it.
That whooshing sound and the rush of air was the above reference which apparently just went over your head. :roll:
 
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You can not say I am fool because you dont like my point.


Of course I can - it's a free country. If I think that you are a fool, I am going to say that you are a fool. Happens all the time, just listen to any politician talk about his opponent :roll: .
Anyway, I think that there is ALOT of difference in the way that folks are using the word "conversion" in this thread. It appears that the Indian contingent is using the word to mean that they are publically declaring themselves to be a religion (I am not sure how this is done tactically).
And it appears that the American folks are using the word to mean that the person has been converted religiously - that in their HEARTS they have changed religions.
The difference between these two uses of the words causes a big difference. If you think that somebody converted on paper but not in their heart, then it seems a bit dirty to bribe folks into doing that (although for the life of me I still can't see why a missionary would waste his time doing this).
If you think that conversion is a change of faith in the way that you think and feel, then it seems rotten that others folks would attempt to interfere with that process just because they do not want their "counts" going down either - or they don't want to dishonor the parents or whatever. No amount of MONEY makes a person's HEART change. Perhaps his mouth may change words, but not his inner beliefs.
 
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Jason et al, here is what happens in India , if you care to read:
http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/jan/21varsha.htm
Some excerpts:


On August 5, 1997, a "self awareness programme" was conducted by three visiting priests at Nirmala Convent in Haldwani, UP. Children, from ages 10 to 16 years, were locked in the church and made to repeatedly chant prayers.



The IP Mission Girls High School, Rajkot, distributed among its students copies of Navo Karaar, the New Testament in Gujarati. Its last page was an oath ("I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour," etc) to be signed by each student.



On October 30, 1998, a conference was organised by Baroda's Alpha Mission at the Heel Memorial School, for which tribals were lured from Gujarat, Rajasthan, Maharashtra and MP. Here, Hindu gods were abused as shaitans. The tribals were exhorted to rip off their sacred threads and fill in pro-formas for baptism. An FIR (I.346/'98) has been lodged against the organisers by Chetanbhai Tadwi of Lotia village.



In November 1998, the nephew of the former Bhil Raja of Linga, district Dangs, was twice thrashed for refusing to convert to Christianity.



In July 1998, in Moti Bhamri, district Narmada, Christians attacked and urinated inside a Hanuman temple.


And Thomas, what happens in my country IS MY BUSINESS for sure. And so I do get to decide what's is forced conversion and what is not. We have full right to protect overselves by whatever means. May be you don't like it, so be it.
 
Anonymous
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A couple of week ago TamilNadu (an Indian State) banned forced conversion. It is the 5th state to do so.
BTW, ever heard of missionaries trying to convert muslim in India?? This is in spite of the fact that muslims are among India's most depressed classes. This is because missionaries do not consider muslims as a "soft target".
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

I can say that your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry if I feel like it.
That whooshing sound and the rush of air was the above reference which apparently just went over your head. :roll:


This is what we call "jalra" in our local language . "jalra" is a musical instrument which is used as a sidekick for the major musical instruments. It will play on the tune of the major insturments.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The religious problems in India are created by people like you who are intolerant to other religious beliefs.


Oh yeah, I sure am intolerant to people who bribe/lure other people to propogate their religion. I don't want that to happen in my country. If you want it to happen in your country, that's your business.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Freedom of expression is the most important freedom we have in America.


Do you call hurting other people is freedom? Cool...


It is quite clear that you don't understand what true freedom is.


Thanks, I dont want to understand your version of freedom. I can see it the way you behave. I am better with my own version of freedom.
Since you didnt care to find the truth and answer my simple question, for me, there is no point in discussing here.
Good luck guys.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Want to know why you have religious problems in India? Look in the mirror.


Well, here is one for you:
Want to know why OBL et al are up against US? Look in the mirror
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
What simple question? I thought I responded to every point you made. It is clear that you are intolerant and don't want freedom unless you can control it. But I am learning quite a bit about India.


Thanks for the comment about me. And I could see that you dont read my posts carefully. Anyway, Good to know that you are learning about India.

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Ok now answer me this, a person goes to a poor family and say "I will give you 500Rs per month. In return, you should change your religion and come to church every sunday, and spread the word of Jesus. If you dont agree with this agreement, I am not going to give you the money. It is up to you to decide." Tell me what do you call this? Bribary? Charity? Mission? Helping people? Forcing people? Well.. I am not expecting any other words from you, but please try to answer about what do you think about that person? That is enough for me. I will end this dicussion.
I dont have to prove anyone that our socity is a tolerant socity. If you want to find out, come and see it in India. If you dont, then , there is something called "freedom of thought".

 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I read all your posts very carefully. So repeat your question and I will answer it.


Thomas, you asked "what is forced conversion?" Rather than a reply, Sankar came back with another question, with a specific example of someone being paid R500, etc. I, too, am curious about what forced conversion is defined as. The question demands an answer, not a question.
A person's level of "faith" - the degree of their belief in their belief system - would surely be low if in fact they convert (in their heart and not their mouth) based on a bribe.
Mark.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
An interesting question. Sankar is referring to hurting someone with words not by physical assault. And, yes, in America insults are a protected form of speech. If Sankar wishes to, he can sit outside the White House and call George Bush a jerk all day along and other than being asked, perhaps, to move along no one will bother him. America is built on the premise that freedom of speech is the most important freedom we have.


Well.. you have freedom of speech, can you go and tell an african american that he is a fool because he is black? (Sorry no offence to anyone). Or does this belong to the other catagory? If so, the same goes to missionaries and churches who says the followers of other faith are kafir or infedals. We, the Hindus, dont say that.


There are only very few exceptions to freedom of speech. For example, yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater knowing that a riot may enuse and people could get hurt would not be protected. Inciting people to riot by, for example, shouting to a crowd, "Let's round up all the foreigners and lynch 'em" would also not be protected. The other exceptions are slander and libel. Interestingly, the more famous a person is, the more difficult it is for them to sue for slander and libel. It is almost impossible for a politician to win a slander suit.


Who defines this exceptions? Dont you think it depends on the region and the people? Read my above statement.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
[QB]
As to the first question, insulting other people because of their race, creed, color, hair style, breath smells, or any other reason falls within the region of free speech. If I want to stand in front of St. Patrick's Cathedral and tell every Catholic that they are damned to hell that is my right.


I didnt ask what american constitution say about freedome of speech. If you hurt other people and their faith by any means, that is inhumine and barbaric. If you say your law doesnt say anything about hurting people verbally, be happy with it.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I already answered this. It's none of my business. This is between the missionary and the potential convert-ee. Now if you want to offer me some money to become a Hindu, we can talk.


Then the whole discussion comes to an end. There is the answer for your question about forced conversion. If you dont like to think, it is your problem.
ok.. since you are programmer, I will put it in this way..
Your manager comes to you and say you have to finish this job by the evening, otherwise you will lose the job and he mean it.
What do you say about it? Bribe? force? scandal? Dont take it literally and come back and say I took the job blah blah and all.
And, I am not that rich to bribe you (yes, bribe, because, you have a choice, since you are not financially very bad) to conver to Hinduism. How much do you expect to change you and your dependents religion to Hinduism? . I dont agree with that but I like to know about it.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
If you hurt other people and their faith by any means, that is inhumine and barbaric.


If somebody hurts your poor fragile feelings whether or not on purpose, that is "insensitive", not "inhumane and barbaric". Since almost anything that anybody says can be construed by some as somehow being offensive, that is "hurt their feelings", trying to argue that there should be a law against hurting somebodies feelings is ridiculous. People haev the right to say what they want to other people. Further, the only people to whom it is any concern what is said are the parties of the conversation. If person A says something to person B, who cares if person C takes offense. It's none of C's business.
What you are against is other people expressing themselves to each other where you might personally be offended, even though you are not a party to the conversation. You don't need to hear it or even be aware of any particular instances of this suppoedly offensive communication, just to know that it is going on somewhere offends you to the point you feel your will and desires must be placed over theirs. And even more amusing, you spout all this nonsense while claiming you are tolerant, secular, and support freedom of choice and speech. Do you really wonder why India is still a third world country?
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Then the whole discussion comes to an end. There is the answer for your question about forced conversion. If you dont like to think, it is your problem.


Answer? Answer? Why doesn't anyone answer the question - "what is forced conversion?"
Sankar/Thomas, would it hurt to answer the question? You can then disagree on each other's answers, but at least the rest of us would know what you're arguing about and where you stand.
If you can't come up with a definition, then use this one:
Forced Conversion occurs when a religious belief is changed as a result of a threat of physical violence.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Forced Conversion occurs when a religious belief is changed as a result of a threat of physical violence.


They consider it "forced" conversion when any aid is given to the convert/potential convert. Their supposition is that the conversion takes place as a condition of giving aid. Even talking to people about religion or teaching people about your religion and what it stands for is seen as "forced" conversion if conversion results from such conversations. Basically, they are saying "forced" conversion, but what they seem to mean is any conversion at all is the problem.
They claim somehow to have the best interests of the poor at heart, but they do nothing for the poor themselves, and in fact "the poor" are treated as due their caste by these people. There is an apparent real interest in seeing that the position of the poor is not bettered.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]
 
Mark Milan
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BTW, if you can come up with a better definition, fine, as long as you agree on it. Although the language of choice here is English, it is not the mother tongue for all those here (I mean no disrespect by that statement). In a meeting of cultures, sometimes the first thing to do is establish a commonality, a stake in the ground. Definitions can help.
Speaking of common ground - does anyone have a good Star Trek episode that we can refer to here?
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

They consider it "forced" conversion when any aid is given to the convert/potential convert. Their supposition is that the conversion takes place as a condition of giving aid. Even talking to people about religion or teaching people about your religion and what it stands for is seen as "forced" conversion if conversion results from such conversations. Basically, they are saying "forced" conversion, but what they seem to mean is any conversion at all is the problem.
They claim somehow to have the best interests of the poor at heart, but they do nothing for the poor themselves, and in fact "the poor" are treated as due their caste by these people. There is an apparent real interest in seeing that the position of the poor is not bettered.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]


Thank you for clarifying what other people think. Is this what YOU think?
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Answer? Answer? Why doesn't anyone answer the question - "what is forced conversion?"
Sankar/Thomas, would it hurt to answer the question? You can then disagree on each other's answers, but at least the rest of us would know what you're arguing about and where you stand.
If you can't come up with a definition, then use this one:
Forced Conversion occurs when a religious belief is changed as a result of a threat of physical violence.


Mark,
I will explain it since you are curious.
The chiristian missionaries goes to poor people and say they will give them some money MONTHLY and in return they have to change their (all of them in the household) faith to chiristianity. They will stop giving the money if they change back to Hinduism or some other religion. This is what I hate about them. This is what we call "forcing the poor family". I used force instead of bribe, because that poor family dont have any choice and force them to change their religion. People living outside of India can say what the heck wrong with that. I dont have to go and defend it.
I will end my discussion here since this dicussion goes to uncivilized manner.
:roll:
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Even there it would have to be a continuous threat of pysical violence. If I come to your house and say, "become a Wiccan or I will beat you up" and then after you convert I leave and never come back, have you really converted? Did my threat really mean anything? Don't you simply go back to your old ways thinking, "that guy was an idiot"?


I see your point. Maybe the definition should read "... result of an ongoing threat...". Not necessarily continuous.

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

The money thing makes me laugh. They even admit that one guy converted over and over again. And that is the point. I offered to become a Hindu for money because the second they give me the money I kick them out the door and go back to whatever religion I practice or don't practice. You can't buy a conversion. You can use money as an entree in order to get people to listen to you but that is all money can do.


It all goes back to "true" conversion. If a person converts in mind and heart, and is not just mouthing words, then who are we to interfere with that? If you say that you practice religious tolerance, then by that definition, you shouldn't be interfering with that conversion, as long as the religion makes no physical threats to you. It seems that many Indians here seem to think they should interfere.
My opinion is that a convert, either a "true" convert or a "cash" convert, was never really faithful to their original religion. It's also my opinion that people change.
Your opinion may differ.
 
San Su
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Speaking of common ground - does anyone have a good Star Trek episode that we can refer to here?[/QB]


I have seen many episode, but I dont remember since they are too many of them (or is it my illusion?), Can we start with StartWars? I liked the attack of the clones much better than the first one. Does anyone know the release date of the next episode?
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
Thank you for clarifying what other people think. Is this what YOU think?


No need to clarify, just summarizing. This question has already been asked and answered over and over in this thread. If you were really interested all you had to do is go back and read. Same thing applies regarding what I think.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Mark,
I will explain it since you are curious.
The chiristian missionaries goes to poor people and say they will give them some money MONTHLY and in return they have to change their (all of them in the household) faith to chiristianity. They will stop giving the money if they change back to Hinduism or some other religion. This is what I hate about them. This is what we call "forcing the poor family". I used force instead of bribe, because that poor family dont have any choice and force them to change their religion. People living outside of India can say what the heck wrong with that. I dont have to go and defend it.
I will end my discussion here since this dicussion goes to uncivilized manner.
:roll:


Sankar:
The family does have a choice. It's not a good one, but it's a choice. By your explanation of the situation, I would call that a "bribe", not "force". Mr. Webster would probably agree. Did you use "force" instead of "bribe" because it would prove your point better?
I do not think (IMO) that what these Christian Missionaries are doing is a correct interpretation of the bible, nor is it "fair play". For that reason, I suspect that your story may not be the full story - after all there are 3 sides - Yours, Mine, and the Truth. That is not to say that "Christian Missionaries" are a guiltless group. They are people, and that makes them flawed.
Maybe the answer is to ship over Union organizers - then the Hindu poor could demand money from the Christian Missionaries without conversion.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

No need to clarify, just summarizing. This question has already been asked and answered over and over in this thread. If you were really interested all you had to do is go back and read. Same thing applies regarding what I think.


Sorry, Jason, that was a bit of a knee jerk response, I apologize. While not stating your beliefs, you actually got closer to a consensus by listing what you believed the "other side's" opinion was.
Again, my apologies.
 
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I have to say this is the most entertaining thread I have ever read.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Roger Goerke:
I have to say this is the most entertaining thread I have ever read.


Did someone force you to say that?
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I already answered this. It's none of my business. This is between the missionary and the potential convert-ee.


This is a stupid logic. If a thug is looting your fellow citizen...it would be between the thug and that guy. None of your business, of course.
 
San Su
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Mr Pakka Desi,
There is no point in argueing with these guys. They started name calling and give a damn about hurting your feelings. Truth...
BTW, are you from TamilNadu?
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

This is a stupid logic. If a thug is looting your fellow citizen...it would be between the thug and that guy. None of your business, of course.


Here is where "stupid logic" comes into play.
By my reckoning, conversion of a fellow citizen is NOT harming him or his property. A thug looting a fellow citizen IS harming him or his property. To make the link that:
- Jason would not interfere in a religious conversion, therefore...
- Jason would not interfere in the looting of a fellow citizen.
Perhaps Jason would not interfere in either, but your logic is flawed.
However, by applying your logic back on you, can I be correct in assuming that you place looting and religious conversion in the same category?
If so, then this explains a lot...
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Here is where "stupid logic" comes into play.
By my reckoning, conversion of a fellow citizen is NOT harming him or his property. A thug looting a fellow citizen IS harming him or his property. To make the link that:
- Jason would not interfere in a religious conversion, therefore...
- Jason would not interfere in the looting of a fellow citizen.
Perhaps Jason would not interfere in either, but your logic is flawed.
However, by applying your logic back on you, can I be correct in assuming that you place looting and religious conversion in the same category?
If so, then this explains a lot...



Eventhough I am tempted to answer your query, I restrict myself not to..
I thought you wanted to talk about starwar or startrek..
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
Mr Pakka Desi,
There is no point in argueing with these guys. They started name calling and give a damn about hurting your feelings. Truth...
BTW, are you from TamilNadu?
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]


I don't see any name calling. Jason said he has a right in America to call you a name. He gave an example, (which was a Monty Python reference, a joke), but did not actually call you (or your sister) a name.
As for feelings, Jason did not say whether he gives a damn about other's feelings, nor have his actions indicated that he doesn't give a damn. He's just giving you examples of legally acceptable behaviour. Depending on your locale, the MORALLY acceptable behaviour in America can be totally different. But that's another thread, and one you and I are not qualified to talk about.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
When did we start name calling? And you are right that I don't care about hurting your feelings. I care about murdered missionaries.


Instead of constructive critisism, you guys started calling me fanatic, look at the mirror, third world and all the other crap.. your care about murdered missionaries but not the people who is getting murdered by the missionaries backing terriorists. Well.. I dont care about what you think about my socity and me.. and please dont repond to my post.. I end my discussion on this topic here..
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

The solution...
Imagine a soup kitchen in a poor neighborhood...


The Union Organizers was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion. However, your soup kitchen example is very good.
 
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