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Can forum have moderate Moderators?

 
Ranch Hand
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Hi,
First of all, many thanks to all Javaranch moderators, who are keeping this community helpful in open and friendly manner.

I just love this forum and I am member of this forum for quite a long time.
I have an observation. In JSP forum, I have observed that one particular moderator's comment are not helpful, and friendly. Those comments could sounds little rude to the new comers. Here is an example:


Here's a helpful tip: adding phrases like "I am waiting" (as well as things like "Urgent" and so on) are usually considered rude and off-putting. If you want people to help you, it would be best to refrain from such language



There are many such helpful tips by the moderator, which really doesn�t help to resolve the real issue.
There is less technical help and more on improving English and written communication.

I think, If this forum continue to help people with open and friendly attitude, it would be able to server larger population of the technical world.
Long live javaranch!
[ October 05, 2004: Message edited by: Jmannu gundawar ]
 
author
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I personally say the same thing when people post stuff in the forum with urgent, I need this asap, etc.

We are not getting paid here to help people out and it makes no difference to me if a person needs help for a project that is due in 5 years and one that is do in 5 minutes.

People that normally post URGENT!!! do not explain their problems correctly. Sad thing is a search on Google can solve 80% of all of the questions that pop up in my forum.

When I see urgent in the title, I normally look at that one last.

Eric
 
Marshal
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Well that would be me.

more on improving English and written communication.



Yes, exactly. The point of such posts is to help the person who is seeking help to obtain that help. Improving written communication helps achieve that goal.

When I see someone posting in a manner that is known to inhibit obtaining help (using rude, or seemingly rude, language, using "u" and "ur", not posting clear questions, and so on), I try to help that person by pointing out what they are doing that might prevent someone who could help them from posting a response.

I'm sorry that you find such helpful hints objectionable (and they are certainly not meant to be rude), but I will continue to make them since they will help people with questions to get those questions answered. Learning is, after all, the goal of the Ranch.
[ October 05, 2004: Message edited by: Bear Bibeault ]
 
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Just to add to what Bear said..

Helping people doesn't always mean providing them with an answer to their question. The fact is, there are some members who post questions and I have no idea what they are asking. So I'll suggest better posting techniques and ask for some clarification of their problem.

I don't think this is being rude. This is helping the member so they can get better help in the future, faster.

I do understand the point being made Jmannu. We're not saying you are wrong or anything. I think it's just how everyone perceives things differently. I don't know of any instances where's Bear's techniques have come under question by those that Bear is trying to help.
 
mister krabs
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I didn't see anything rude in Bear's post. I think Bear is quite right in reminding everyone that JavaRanch is made of volunteers who give up their free time to help.
 
Manoj Gundawar
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Thank you all for commenting on this. May be I was wrong, may be my perception was wrong. But I am user of this forum. And that was user's
perception.

Thanks to all mentors who devote so much time here without getting paid.

I agree that some members don�t ask clear questions and they need correcting remarks.

But I still don�t agree with few comments made here. I know, and we all know that, whatever issues resolved here during discussion, can be resolved somewhere else too. Like goggle search, reading more material etc. If you are expecting people to visit this place as last resort, after doing all that, I think it defeats the whole purpose of this forum.
 
High Plains Drifter
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We've been talking about this a little in our own Moderator's Forum. Based on this last comment, I think it's a good time to bring out my sentiment, which is this: I dislike the idea that people come to JavaRanch with the preconception that it is a high-priority answer mill dedicated to people with nowhere else to turn.

We're a community of Java users. The goal is "a friendly place for Java greenhorns to meet." Some of these people may not be greenhorns, some of those people may not even want to "meet," as in participate in a sociable atmosphere. But I don't think it's ever the case that we wanted to be known for answering questions no one else could answer. When that does happen here, it's a happy by-product: we attract some quite talented people who could draw quite good money with their knowledge and skills if that's all they cared about. They come here because the fun and rewards of participating and helping outweigh the benefits of working harder for The Man.

A lot of us are educators. We don't want to answer fast and prove ourselves. We want people to think and reason in ways that help them become better programmers on their own. Consider two people in a classroom: one says, after a class, "this will help me on my project." Another says "NOW I get it." I'll teach both, but I'll teach again because I might see that second reaction one more time.

That's the hook. Pounding out answers can be fun for a time, to prove one's skill and fluency. But after a while people who become experts want to know they are paying forward the time someone took to show them what they've learned. That's where community comes in.

Asking that the community come together on a few simple guidelines that stimulate good will and a feeling that it's worthwhile to help: that's all we ask. If you're in too much of a hurry for that, someone may still answer your question. It still might serve others as well as you.

That's what I care about. I can't even remember the names of the people who helped me learn or what it was they showed me, but I can very well remember that they made me feel when they helped me, and that's what I want to pass on.
 
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This is my rant, not only about "URGENT" stuff.

If you are expecting people to visit this place as last resort, after doing all that, I think it defeats the whole purpose of this forum.

Let's assume that people will give an honest effort at solving their own problems, which can include things like googling (which is an instance of "STFW"). When used correctly, "STFW/googling" is like an expert system. But its limitation is 'no dialog'. If you have a specific question or can't quite get something to work, and you've tried on your own, and now you need help... that's where javaranch comes in. So in many ways, I hope we're the first resort in these cases. Do a bit of work yourself, and if you're stuck, then come on in.

My personal hope is that people who have done all of that research and thinking for themselves, and used other resources to try to obtain the answer to their question... that they would come to the ranch with a much *better* question than "UGENT!!! ASAP!!!" and oh yes... poorly worded, hard to understand questions. As clearly as you can, and without the prodding "HURRY" stuff, tell us what the problem is, the environment, and some things you've tried so far. Without this information, and with the addition of l33t hax0r contractions that r hard 2 understand... it's enough to drive the people that volunteer *right* around the bend.

(And yup, it's true... I like many others, not only leave 'UGENT' for last, I leave them, period, unless I have nothing else to do.)

Many of us feel it's just courtesy for you to take those extra moments that are required to bring everyone else up to speed; we haven't spent all that time looking over your shoulder, and we haven't been right beside you for the last 2 minutes/hours/days with our frustration ratcheting up with your own. From our perspective, you can appear rushed and rude when you insist that your question deserves more attention, and to "just trust that I've done everything you would have done, and never mind asking me if i've tried this or that... just give me the answer". Instant answers is what googling is for; you're on the Ranch now.

If you don't take this time, if there's anything about your post that might prevent a 'typical' javaranch user (which bartenders/sherrifs might perhaps be more able to spot) from answering your questions, don't be surprised if we remind you gently about "things that might help you get an answer". In one view, it's our *job* as bartenders/sherrifs to point that out (politely). If we don't also help you with your *actual* question... it might just be because we don't actually understand what you're asking, and our 'suggestions' are a way of getting you to maybe provide more details. (This has happened to me on lots of occasions).

We're only helping you get an answer quicker for this and next time. But the advice here is free, so you know what they say free advice is worth.

Let's assume the worst case now... if you've done nothing yourself, and you ask a 'bad question' (any question that matches any of the patterns in the "how to ask smart questions faq"), then expect to get called on it, or ignored.

The rub, of course, is that we have *no way* to determine which case we're dealing with. Is this some guy that blows in here the first little stumble and demands answers, with precious little help in the text of their post (thus, deserving to be ignored)... or is it someone who has really done the work and is just frustrated, and perhaps is being (unintentionally) abrupt in both their technical detail and demeanour. Again, it's in your interest to distinguish yourself as definitely *NOT* the first guy. So when you remember to not be the 2nd guy, we won't confuse you with the 1st.


There is less technical help and more on improving English and written communication.

You know how they say "money is power"? Agree with that or not (in general or specific), "written communication" is our currency here. There are various kinds of currency. There's the stuff that no one wants, and there's the stuff everyone wants. It's in your interest to have the good stuff. Wanted or not, when one of us advises you that your question could us some help (ie: non-technical advice)... we're not being rude or laughing at you. We're trying to help.
 
author
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JavaRanch is a community that people can have a good time learning. We need people who can have friendly and intelligent discussions that would benefit each other. We do not need rude and ungrateful free riders. And we certainly do not miss them if they just leave.

I personally ignore any post that contains words like "urgent" and "waiting" or any post that implies a deadline. The deadline is for the poster not for the rest of us. I also ignore any post that sounds (even remotely) like a homework assignment.
 
author
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Originally posted by Mike Curwen:
If we don't also help you with your *actual* question... it might just be because we don't actually understand what you're asking, and our 'suggestions' are a way of getting you to maybe provide more details. (This has happened to me on lots of occasions).



Or it might just be because we don't know the answer. Bartenders aren't omniscient - they even might not be experts in the topic of their forum :gasp:

In my eyes, a bartenders job is not answering your questions, but keeping the forum going - which well includes helping you ask your questions in a way that you are likely to get good answers.
 
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When people ask questions about programming (which is an exact science in many ways) being extremely careless about the wording of their post, skipping information needed to understand the problem (how's the computer going to understand it when humans can't, most computers still can't leap to conclusions on incomplete data) and being generally rude, they should not expect to get prompt answers that solve their problem immediately and completely.
When they receive an answer effectively saying they should improve their communication skills that's a lot of help right there.
When you ask the proper question you're more likely to get a correct answer. This goes for questions asked to humans but also for questions asked to computers.
 
author and iconoclast
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Originally posted by Ilja Preuss:

Bartenders aren't omniscient



That's right. Only Sheriffs are omniscient.
 
ranger
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OK, my two cents.

I find that those posts titled with URGENT, get ignored the most. I tend to not want to answer those threads because the person is only thinking of themselves, and want to jump over everyone else that is asking questions, because they are more important than the next.

If you post questions here, you will find that you will get an answer pretty quickly anyway. Actually putting URGENT in the title will only get you an answer slower.

When Bear posted his comment, he was actually trying to be helpful in a nice way, it wasn't a rude comment that he made, just a helpful hint.

Mark
 
Ilja Preuss
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Originally posted by Mark Spritzler:
I find that those posts titled with URGENT, get ignored the most. I tend to not want to answer those threads because the person is only thinking of themselves, and want to jump over everyone else that is asking questions, because they are more important than the next.



Also, if it was so urgent when posted, it's probably already too late now, anyway...
 
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I am new to the Fourum and want to say it has been verry helpful so far and the explanation i got made me say "Now I Get it". I know my written skills leave alot to be desired so i look forward to the friendly kick in the but to make it better. So keep up the great work.
 
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ehem... the word is "butt."
 
r phipps
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Thanks Nick, see what happens when i try to clean up my lanuage, i can't spell those clean words.
 
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