• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Paul Clapham
  • Ron McLeod
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Bear Bibeault
Sheriffs:
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Tim Cooke
  • Devaka Cooray
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Tim Holloway
  • Piet Souris
  • salvin francis
  • Stephan van Hulst
Bartenders:
  • Frits Walraven
  • Carey Brown
  • Jj Roberts

What do you think about this?

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello,
I have BS and MS in Computer Science and I had a lot of trouble getting my first job. First of all, everyone said I had no paid programming experience they did not care about the fact that I had Computer Science degrees. I heard that some people were making a lot of money right after some training for a couple of months(especially, network area). The company offered me $40K with basic health insurance only-no dental,no vision. And since it's a consulting job there is no bonus and etc. I had to accept the offer because I was desperate those times. They put me on a client project. After the first 3 months salary was raised to $50K.
I learnt later that they put me on that project as a junior programmer. But I knew that they recently imported some Russians directly from abroad as Programmer/Analysts. After a couple of months I figured out that they were not any better than I was and I was sure that the employer had to pay them $70 at least to bring them here with H1B visa.
Anyway, I had a talk with the company president, he accepted the fact that I worth more and he said he would increase my salary for the new project..And indeed he did increase it to around $70K now. So, it seems I worked for less money than I deserved for the last 6 months. I am working with Java (EJB,JSP,Oracle, Weblogic). I did not take Certification Exam but will take it soon..The problem is that I can not get to trust the company anymore.
I feel like cheated but I am a little bit glad that I spoke up for my rights. I still have doubts though because I can not trust them anymore but it is hard to find good jobs seems like everywhere is so similar.
Any comments on this situation will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
 
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Are you kiddin!? You are in the driver's seat. Why is it that you don't trust your employer?
After 3 months your salary was increased by 25%. You had no experience (only a graduate degree in CS which from what I have seen counts less and less in this economy...) and no Java Certification.


Well, without any (as in Zero) professional Java experience I was offered what you're making now. I have a lot of experience in computer programming but only 14 months ago I started learning Java/OOP. And I got 98% in the SCPJ2 Certification.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well..Seems like you are one of those who belive we go to school for nothing..I had a talk like that with a guy at the Chubb ..He claimed that degree holders did't know how to program. Even if you don't have any experience, after one year training at a place like Chubb you will know more than a degree holder! That's stupid..
Java Certification does not mean anything more than the fact that you just studied some books and memorized a lot of stuff to pass the exam and that's it..What percentage of those stuff do you think will you remember, say 3 months later?
I don't regret because I went for MS in Computer Science, I feel I mastered the theory--not just the buzz words and shallow stuff, which gives me advantage to understand what is going on at a deeper level.
When it comes to the trust issue..I believe that if I did not speak up for my rights they would not increase my salary by themselves..If I was wrong in asking they would tell me that I did not deserve any increase. Plus, I have degree from one of the top schools, so why should I settle for less?
 
Greenhorn
Posts: 17
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I can appreciate your frustration with your original salary and your perception someone might think a Masters isn't worth it, but I believe you may want to consider some other factors.
My experience (I'm currently a Smalltalk programmer)is that employers don't hand out raises like candy. You have to ask for a raise. In your case, you were hired in at too low of a level IMHO, but after you had proven yourself, were given a substantial raise. Obviously your boss thought you were worth more, but I'm guessing primarily due to your educational background. You have to be aggressive with your career, which means you ask for something if you think you deserve it. I'm glad to see you recognized your worth and got what you deserved.
Regarding the worth of a degree in the IT market, that all depends. I know several collegues who are making 100k + as contractors with no Masters. This is because of experience, not education.
A Masters will give you a good foundation, and perhaps give you more options, but the most valuable programmers, architects, etc. get that way from experience.
I'll get off my soap box now, and just want to say It's not as bad as you may think.
Ron.
[This message has been edited by Ron Moddesette (edited August 03, 2000).]
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 53
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I agree with Ron. Ask for what you want if you think you deserve it, but don't think that because you have a master's degree in CS that someone is just going to hand you a 100K job just like that.
What do you want to do? Be a programmer. Then study, study, study. You are not going to get any good just thinking about it. you have to do it. As for the Java Certification? Ha, you will use that information just about every single day. I learned java on the job, on the fly, trial by fire (not fun btw!) and I am currently studying for the SJCP. It's amazing how much I knew about Java and stuff on the cert exam without knowing the Technical terminology.
I don't know the total time frame as far as all of your raises go, it seems like around a year. But a 75% raise - from starting till now is pretty damn good.
My $0.02
aj
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 458
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My first programming job paid well below the going rate. I took it, cause it had been two years and nothing else was available, Then I worked real hard to show I could write code and design systems. I did that for two years and then moved to a better paying job and then a few years later did it again. "Rome wasn't built in a day" to be oh, so cliche' Be patient build your career not your salary. If you are good the $$$ will follow, but you got to get the skills in the real world. Look for the jobs that will add viable experience to your resume' not the fattest paycheck.
 
Tony Alicea
Desperado
Posts: 3226
5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I quit an MS in CS degree program at SUNY (State Univ. of NY), Stony Brook after the first (of four) semesters because I was offered the salary, right then and there, that I thought I'd had to wait to have a Master's to earn. That saved me 1.5 years of studying and not making a real living. This happened in the academic year 1976-77 in Long Island, New York.
ADDENDUM: My socialist-liberal friends form undergrad school called me (jokingly) a "traitor" because the job that I got was as a programmer in the Electronic Warfare Dept. of a major US defense contractor in LI, NY.
FINALLY: I have nothing against graduate education! I wish I'd had a Ph.D. in Physics (I already have a B.Sc in it... ) Maybe that way I could participate in the development of Superstring theory...
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would like to thank you all for sharing your ideas and/or experiences with me. Actually, my intension is not to be a programmer, I was just accepted into a PhD program in CS but I can not be a full-time student for now, so I have to work and go to school part-time and I was disappointed with my starting salary because it was low.Now I am OK with it and also I am studying for the Java 2 certification to make myself a more valuable programmer. Hopefully, things will get better.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 156
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You think its bad on the programming side??
Try networking, 5+ years experience, NT, NetWare, few different flavors of Unix, on both Token Ring and Ethernet networks. Design, implementation, support, HTML, IIS, Apache...blah blah blah ...still below 60K.
I don't know how some people do it, friend of mine, not as much experience, no real NetWare experience, or Token Ring. Mostly helpdesk work, just got 30% raise, has to be near 70K. Everytime that boy moves, he gets the cash....where's the magic? Am I too accepting too easily?
Now I am still in networking, but taking on entry level programming...eventually thats what I want to do.
 
Anonymous
Ranch Hand
Posts: 18944
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I too have an M.S. in Computer Science (Lehigh University,
Bethlehem, PA May 1999). I have been faced with the same
situation that the above posts have mentioned. I did land
a job with Lucent Technologies - production support on phone
loop testing software (Unix, C++, Oracle) - but was laid off (along with 500 others) 6 months after being hired. Note, this
was a production support position - not a development position.
I had started on the Ph.D. program (again at Lehigh Univ), and
wanted to at least get the fall semester out of the way. I had
some other job offers - mainframe production support type - not
even mainframe COBOL development. I have 2 yrs experience with
EDS doing COBOL work/development/support.
Anyhow, I decided that I wanted to take control of my career - and have been studying for the SCJP exam since Feb. Hope to
take it in September.
As for automatically getting a comp.sci. job (a developer
position anyway) - an M.S. degree (I had 3.8/4.0) doesn't seem
to impress employers all that much. I went on about 20 different
interviews last year (when I finished M.S. and then after the
Lucent layoff). Most employers are looking at specific skill
sets - not whether you have a piece of paper (MS Degree) or not.
I am so dissapointed that Lehigh is not up to date with their
Computer Science program. Seems that after spending $26K+ for
tuition - that I would have been better off just hitting up
the books on my own (which I am essentially doing now).
Johnny
 
AJ Dussault
Ranch Hand
Posts: 53
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
It amazes me that universities are not teaching up to date technologies!!!
I am currently 4 classes + thesis away from my masters and have taken classes in Java (beginning, advanced), Database theory and design using Oracle and SQL Server, Project Management (using books printed in the late 90's), Systems Analysis, among others. ALL classes that I can take to work and use on a daily basis. I don't think there is one class (other than Win32 Systems Programming!) that I don't use!
I am going to a private, liberal arts college in the midwest. Most of my instructors are currently employed at Lucent. Maybe that's the difference??
AJ
 
With a little knowledge, a cast iron skillet is non-stick and lasts a lifetime.
reply
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic