What's it all about man (this Java thang)
Tom F
Greenhorn
Posts: 5
posted 16 years ago
I'm learning Lingo and thought It would be good to learn Java also being a OO language, after hearing how wonderful it is in comparision to C++ VB etc etc.
I know what I can do with Director/Lingo but what can I do with Java, once learnt, certified and have experience. et al.
Any constructive comments/links/info are greatly appreciated.
[This message has been edited by Tom F (edited January 10, 2001).]
I know what I can do with Director/Lingo but what can I do with Java, once learnt, certified and have experience. et al.
Any constructive comments/links/info are greatly appreciated.
[This message has been edited by Tom F (edited January 10, 2001).]
Tom F
Greenhorn
Posts: 5
Frank Carver
Sheriff
Posts: 6920
posted 16 years ago
I think the lack of responses to your post stems from several things:
1. You didn't wait very long. Java Ranch is a 24 hour site used by people from all over the world. The people with the best answers to your questions may not even be awake yet.
2. The topic of what Java is useful for has been discussed at length before. It's always a good idea to do some searching to see what has been said on a topic already. This applies to philosophical questions just as much as technical ones.
3. Most people who visit Java Ranch are already comfortable with what Java can offer and can sometimes view questions like this as a "troll" or a preparation for a "my language is better than yours" argument, which is best left alone.
4. I don't suppose there are many visitors here who are sufficiently familiar with Lingo to offer a comparison. I've heard the name, for example, but can't place it. Is it some sort of web scripting language?
And finally, you are considerably less likely to get a sensible answer if you don't even follow the site naming convention specified when you signed up to post. The Java Ranch has thousands of visitors every week, many with surprisingly similar names. To avoid confusion we have a naming convention, described at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp . We require names to have at least two words, separated by a space, and strongly recommend that you use your full real name. Please choose a new name which meets the requirements.
I don't want to seem negative about this. It's definately a worthy topic for discussion. How about you post something introducing Lingo and your experiences with it to get things started?
1. You didn't wait very long. Java Ranch is a 24 hour site used by people from all over the world. The people with the best answers to your questions may not even be awake yet.
2. The topic of what Java is useful for has been discussed at length before. It's always a good idea to do some searching to see what has been said on a topic already. This applies to philosophical questions just as much as technical ones.
3. Most people who visit Java Ranch are already comfortable with what Java can offer and can sometimes view questions like this as a "troll" or a preparation for a "my language is better than yours" argument, which is best left alone.
4. I don't suppose there are many visitors here who are sufficiently familiar with Lingo to offer a comparison. I've heard the name, for example, but can't place it. Is it some sort of web scripting language?
And finally, you are considerably less likely to get a sensible answer if you don't even follow the site naming convention specified when you signed up to post. The Java Ranch has thousands of visitors every week, many with surprisingly similar names. To avoid confusion we have a naming convention, described at http://www.javaranch.com/name.jsp . We require names to have at least two words, separated by a space, and strongly recommend that you use your full real name. Please choose a new name which meets the requirements.
I don't want to seem negative about this. It's definately a worthy topic for discussion. How about you post something introducing Lingo and your experiences with it to get things started?
Tom F
Greenhorn
Posts: 5
Marcus Green
arch rival
Rancher
Rancher
Posts: 2813
posted 16 years ago
Java is a general purpose language aimed at everything but system level programming (ie you can write just about anything but drivers or operating systems). I believe lingo is a much more specific language.
Java is available from multiple sources, thus Sun, IBM, Microsoft and other companies have their own implementations. I believe Lingo is only from Macromedia. Java started out being promoted for its abilities to run applets (code that is downloaded and run within a browser), it is now getting fame for its abilities at creating interactive web sites where the code runs on the server.
If I were to make broad sweaping comparisons, Java programmers are badly dressed software engineers who are interested in computers cos they like computers whereas people familiar with Lingo would be better dressed and are interested in media, design and the way things look. Well I said I was going to be sweeping
Marcus
Java is available from multiple sources, thus Sun, IBM, Microsoft and other companies have their own implementations. I believe Lingo is only from Macromedia. Java started out being promoted for its abilities to run applets (code that is downloaded and run within a browser), it is now getting fame for its abilities at creating interactive web sites where the code runs on the server.
If I were to make broad sweaping comparisons, Java programmers are badly dressed software engineers who are interested in computers cos they like computers whereas people familiar with Lingo would be better dressed and are interested in media, design and the way things look. Well I said I was going to be sweeping
Marcus
SCWCD: Online Course, 50,000+ words and 200+ questions
http://www.examulator.com/moodle/course/view.php?id=5&topic=all
Diana Ryan
Greenhorn
Posts: 12
posted 16 years ago
Hi.
I have been struggling with the same question for about 4 years.
I've read a lot of hype about Java, I know there's demand for Java programmers and I know that that one language will earn you more money than I earn as a web developer, even though I have just about every other web skill you can name, at least 3 of which are languages, and a couple being "languages" only if you call pig-latin a language :^)
I can trade in the Perl CGI scripts and ASP for JSP, but I'm not really sure I want to. I'm comfortable with Perl and VBScript, and comfortable with IIS and I really honestly do not want to reboot the server every time I change something. I can do applets, but there are STILL browser compatibility and bandwidth issues.
So what exactly is the point? Respect? Money? Maybe the joy of compiling, and the beautiful pain of learning something new. Java is just this language that wants to be everything to everyone. A floorwax AND a dessert topping. For a web developer, that actually kind of makes sense.
~ Diana
I have been struggling with the same question for about 4 years.
I've read a lot of hype about Java, I know there's demand for Java programmers and I know that that one language will earn you more money than I earn as a web developer, even though I have just about every other web skill you can name, at least 3 of which are languages, and a couple being "languages" only if you call pig-latin a language :^)
I can trade in the Perl CGI scripts and ASP for JSP, but I'm not really sure I want to. I'm comfortable with Perl and VBScript, and comfortable with IIS and I really honestly do not want to reboot the server every time I change something. I can do applets, but there are STILL browser compatibility and bandwidth issues.
So what exactly is the point? Respect? Money? Maybe the joy of compiling, and the beautiful pain of learning something new. Java is just this language that wants to be everything to everyone. A floorwax AND a dessert topping. For a web developer, that actually kind of makes sense.
~ Diana
Jason Menard
Sheriff
Posts: 6450
posted 16 years ago
I come from a CGI/Perl background myself, but now do most of my work in Servlets and JSP. From my company's and our customer's standpoint, I can give you a little insight into why Java as oppposed to CGI and ASP.
1. Security. One customer I worked for has been forbidden by their security folks from using CGI. Is this valid? I never really did the research. But even if it's not a valid concern, it's a common enough perception that it affects the decisions a customer makes when choosing the language for a web app project.
2. Many people (myself included) despise IIS. Or even if they don't dislike IIS, there are many factors which may preclude the use of IIS, or maybe the customer just requires the use of a server that isn't IIS. In these cases, you are not going to be too helpful if all you know is ASP and VBScript. Often a customer prefers that he is not tied to any specific web server, and using Java is a solution.
3. Java is usually a better choice for large web applications. The web-based portion of a large application is often only a relatively small part of the overall app. There is often much more behind-the-scenes logic that Java is particularly well suited for. One project I worked required accessing data from an Oracle database and a Netscape LDAP server, processing user input and producing a pdf output. Could ASP or CGI/Perl have done this (even if we weren't required to use the IPlanet web server)? Possibly, but it was pretty easy to do in Java.
4. Programming resources. On a large project, a team of programmers is involved. A properly engineered OO project may be easily divided up amongst a team of developers, decreasing development time. I only know a little bit about ASP, but for the most part ASP and CGI/Perl are not very OO. I could go on about the benefits of OOP (Object Oriented Programming), but suffice it to say that it is a very good, very desirable thing. Further OOP is something most pros are familiar with, and their are many commonly used tools to help with OO design (UML is required by many companies). There is also code re-use to think about. Like any OO Language, Java lends itself to code re-use (the ability to re-use previously written code).
5. Prestige/Ego/Arrogance, whatever you want to call it. There is a bias against VB by many software engineer types. Why is this? By best guess, using my own academic and work experience, is that it's partially due to the fact of how languages are taught in the universites. For example, my school has a Computer Science (CS) department, and an Information Systems Management (IFSM) department. Both are taught programming to some degree. The CS department focuses heavily on theory and mathematical/scientific applications of programming. IFSM concentrates on using computers to solve business problems. There is no opportunity in the CS department to learn VB. By contrast, the IFSM department offers classes in application programming (which in IFSM speak means programming Word, Excel, and Access using VB for apps) using VB, as well as a GUI class using VB. As a consequence of most IFSM students not having much of a grasp of theory, the CS types don't consider them "real" programmers, and to carry it a little further, therefore VB is not a "real" language. These perceptions often remain with the students once they graduate and proceed into industry. I'm not saying it's right, or that I agree with it (I'll keep my opinion to myself :P ), but it is a perception.
That was long and rambling wasn't it. Hope it answered some of your questions, or at least gave you something to think about.
Jay Menard
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited January 29, 2001).]
1. Security. One customer I worked for has been forbidden by their security folks from using CGI. Is this valid? I never really did the research. But even if it's not a valid concern, it's a common enough perception that it affects the decisions a customer makes when choosing the language for a web app project.
2. Many people (myself included) despise IIS. Or even if they don't dislike IIS, there are many factors which may preclude the use of IIS, or maybe the customer just requires the use of a server that isn't IIS. In these cases, you are not going to be too helpful if all you know is ASP and VBScript. Often a customer prefers that he is not tied to any specific web server, and using Java is a solution.
3. Java is usually a better choice for large web applications. The web-based portion of a large application is often only a relatively small part of the overall app. There is often much more behind-the-scenes logic that Java is particularly well suited for. One project I worked required accessing data from an Oracle database and a Netscape LDAP server, processing user input and producing a pdf output. Could ASP or CGI/Perl have done this (even if we weren't required to use the IPlanet web server)? Possibly, but it was pretty easy to do in Java.
4. Programming resources. On a large project, a team of programmers is involved. A properly engineered OO project may be easily divided up amongst a team of developers, decreasing development time. I only know a little bit about ASP, but for the most part ASP and CGI/Perl are not very OO. I could go on about the benefits of OOP (Object Oriented Programming), but suffice it to say that it is a very good, very desirable thing. Further OOP is something most pros are familiar with, and their are many commonly used tools to help with OO design (UML is required by many companies). There is also code re-use to think about. Like any OO Language, Java lends itself to code re-use (the ability to re-use previously written code).
5. Prestige/Ego/Arrogance, whatever you want to call it. There is a bias against VB by many software engineer types. Why is this? By best guess, using my own academic and work experience, is that it's partially due to the fact of how languages are taught in the universites. For example, my school has a Computer Science (CS) department, and an Information Systems Management (IFSM) department. Both are taught programming to some degree. The CS department focuses heavily on theory and mathematical/scientific applications of programming. IFSM concentrates on using computers to solve business problems. There is no opportunity in the CS department to learn VB. By contrast, the IFSM department offers classes in application programming (which in IFSM speak means programming Word, Excel, and Access using VB for apps) using VB, as well as a GUI class using VB. As a consequence of most IFSM students not having much of a grasp of theory, the CS types don't consider them "real" programmers, and to carry it a little further, therefore VB is not a "real" language. These perceptions often remain with the students once they graduate and proceed into industry. I'm not saying it's right, or that I agree with it (I'll keep my opinion to myself :P ), but it is a perception.
That was long and rambling wasn't it. Hope it answered some of your questions, or at least gave you something to think about.
Jay Menard
[This message has been edited by Jason Menard (edited January 29, 2001).]
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