Want to find out what your java skills are worth?

[Heidi Golledge]

Java engineers get paid a LOT in this HOT market??
Are you getting paid what you are worth?
Find out what your salary SHOULD be - and get the latest on the HOTTEST jobs out there!
go to our site:
http://www.cybercoders.com/developer/salary_calc/default.asp?ad=mooseheidi
------------------
Thanks! =)
Heidi Golledge
Director of Recruiting
[e-mail]

[This message has been edited by Heidi Golledge (edited January 11, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Heidi Golledge (edited February 13, 2001).]

[Randall Twede]

I dont know how accurate the salary calculator is, but I liked this site. well of course I did it told me that SCJP(and my skills) was enough. I hope it is correct in telling me that a bachelors or masters is not necessary. I would eagerly accept a job that started at half(even a fourth but then I would feel exploited) of what it said my skills are worth. just to get my foot in the door and get work experience. If anyone who reads this is also self-taught and has landed a job, I would like to hear about it.

[Tony Alicea]

I wonder about the statement
"Find out what your salary SHOULD be - and get the latest on the HOTTEST jobs out there!"
IMHO, what about getting a lot of money for a job you hate?
Isn't job satisfaction worth more in a job you just love versus making 10% more in one you hate?
What do I care what Java developers are making in Silicon Valley if I can't afford to live there in the equivalent home and neighborhood that I live here in South Florida (not even close!)
Besides, we have better beaches and much less traffic!

[Randall Twede]

I agree. Money is not my main motivation for wanting to be a programmer. It has been a "hobby" (on and off) since the late 70's. I think I will start a new thread about my question.

[Heidi Golledge]

Great Questions guys!!
Finding a job that you love is the most important thing. We place nationally - not just in the Silicon Valley.
For example, we have positions in Portland, Maine with ocean views from every office with the hottest java technology out there. =)

------------------

Thanks! =)
Heidi Golledge
Director of Recruiting
[e-mail]

[Mark Herschberg]

And let's not forget that its in the interest of recruiting agencies to make you unsatisfied with your current job, so you wnat to change jobs, for instance creating a bias in the calculator. I'm not saying they did this, just that I don't believe it was out of the goodness of their heart that they provide such a tool.
Let's also note that issues like job hopping aren't as important to them getting a single placement salary, as they are to the person whose resume shows 5 jobs in 5 years.
But hey, I'm a cynic...

--Mark
[e-mail]

[Heidi Golledge]

=)
Cynics welcome ;-)
True! We do recruit --- but why would guys be looking in this employment section if they were not interested in a move?
Also - we guarantee all of our candidates, and once placed in one of our clients, we cannot place them anywhere else.
So, not only do we want you to be happy in the position you are in --- it is financial adventagous for us to place you in a great position. So, we search for the best companies that will mentor you and hopefully turn a java developer into an architect that will be happy for years.
What is a recruiter's true success story? A developer - turned architect - turned team lead - turned CTO - that comes back to hire great developers from us.
Everybody wins. =)
[This message has been edited by Heidi Golledge (edited January 30, 2001).]

[Peter Tran]

Wow...With just a SJCP2, I can get $31,400.00! That should make a lot of our JavaRanch visitors happy campers.

[Peter Tran]

Heidi,
You need to modify the Salary Calculator so it factors in "standard-living" cost. With the salary quoted for me, I could live like a prince in Idaho or a puaper in Silicon Valley.
-Peter

[Mark Herschberg]

True! We do recruit --- but why would guys be looking in this employment section if they were not interested in a move?

Maybe because I didn't have an career guidance when I started and so now that I'm more experienced perhaps I can help others.
Maybe because I'm involved with HR and want to keep my ear to the ground.
Maybe, like you, to try and recruit.
There are plenty of reasons.

What is a recruiter's true success story? A developer - turned architect - turned team lead - turned CTO - that comes back to hire great developers from us.

Well, granted, that's one success story. And of the 20 some recruiter's I've dealt with, I'd say I know two of that opinion. I know plenty more who see a success story as:
1. Place a person
2. Place him/her again
3. Place him/her yet again
4. Goto step 1
Heidi, your profession is much like the user car bussiness. Quality gets you somewhere, but often you can get a higher return on investment with little effort on the recruiters part and rapid throughput of candidates. Much like used cars, often people don't know how to look under the hood, and can easily get mislead. With no regulation, plenty of yahoos show up, call themselves recruiters, and work for quick profit, with little concern for a candidate.
I don't know you, so I can't say whether or not this applies to you or your company. But more often than not I've found recruiters to be unethical, and I've seen naive candidates get placed according to the interests of the recruiter firm, and not their own. I post this simply as an FYI to the other members, to be careful when talking to strangers.
--Mark
[e-mail]

[Heidi Golledge]

Hi Mark! =)
Your comments are appreciated, and I would even agree with some of them. Some recruiters have a used car feel - or even a 'sharky' attitude.
That is precisely what we try to stay away from. It is even written in our agreement that we will not take a candidate from a company once they are placed there - or any employee from that company, for that matter.
I like to deal with 'holes in one'. Sending the perfect candidate in for the perfect job. Both client and candidate are happy. Unlike some recruiters, who send 20-30 resumes and hope it may be a fit.
I understand tho, because I have had, for example, a creative director who I placed tell me that he had been sent by recruiters for C++/OOD positions, and a Java architect talk to me as he just got back from driving 4 hours for a SQL DBA interview.
Morale of the story - talk to your recruiter - check out their website - and then - check out the website of the company they are suggesting. It is also important to get a written copy of the job description, either before the interview - or just off the companies website.
The service is free - and, when it works - it works great. The best recruiters know their jobs well, and will save your time and the clients time.
All the best,
[e-mail]

[Randall Twede]

Peter,
I have to laugh too. Personally, with everything concidered, I probably wasted $150 getting certified. But I had stars in my eyes and the study was worthwhile even if the certificate is not.

[Peter Tran]

Randall,
I don't think of it as a waste of $150. If it forced you to sit down and learn the JAVA language better, than it wasn't a lost at all. You should think of it as a good investment into your future. Your synaptic brain cells thanks you.
Now buying 150 $1-lottery hoping that you'll hit the jackpot is a waste of money. (I won't tell you who did that.)
If Heidi offers you a job, make sure it's more than $34K!
-Peter

[John Coxey]

Randall:
The Certification was definitely NOT a waste of money.
1. It makes you a better Java programmer - as you had to formally learn the rules of the language.
2. For Javatechnical-interview preparation - it's an awesome tool.
3. It prepares you for the Java Developer Certification Exam -which if you get through with good marks - makes you all that much more valuable as a Java programmer.
For getting a job - just having the Certification alone is not enough - but it helps.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Heidi Golledge]

As a recruiter, I know that employers do look at the Sun Java Certification as a positive step toward making you a valuable and desired employee.
If they interview two people with basically the same qualifications/personality, the one with the Java Cert. would win out. =)
Hope that helps,
Heidi

[Mark Herschberg]

As an employer, I can tell you I never bother to look at certification. Given two otherwise absolutely equal candidates, I suppose I'd take the one that's certified, but in the 100+ interviews I did last year, that never happened.
All certification tells me is you didn't just read a book and put Java on your resume. It doesn't tell me if you are a good coder. After about 15 minutes of questions, I have enough of an idea about your Java knowledge and programming ability to make a rought judgement; because the results don't seem to have any correlation to certification, whether or not it's on a resume doesn't save me any time.

--Mark
[e-mail]

[Jim Baiter]

Yeah really. One thing that gets me about these recruiters is
that I get some contract job and they take some whopping amount
out of the bill rate. Now what's up with that? These people are
getting like $40 per hour for doing absolutely nothing! They
say things like "we payroll you" but when I look at the pay stub
they're using Paychex or some service. Personally, I don't care
because I'm getting what I want or I wouldn't take the job. I
just feel sorry for the employer who is paying this huge bill
rate.

[Tony Alicea]

I agree Jim!
Some if not most of these "agents" are getting rich off our backs.
That's why I prefer to deal as a "regular employee" with the company rather than as a "job shopper" (AKA contractor or consultant).
I don't like moving often either.
The key is knowing when to recognize that you don't need the leeches anymore and then drop them.
One way to do this is to accept only positions that are "contract to hire" instead of forever changing.

[M Prembroke]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
As an employer, I can tell you I never bother to look at certification. Given two otherwise absolutely equal candidates, I suppose I'd take the one that's certified, but in the 100+ interviews I did last year, that never happened.
All certification tells me is you didn't just read a book and put Java on your resume. It doesn't tell me if you are a good coder. After about 15 minutes of questions, I have enough of an idea about your Java knowledge and programming ability to make a rought judgement; because the results don't seem to have any correlation to certification, whether or not it's on a resume doesn't save me any time.

--Mark
[e-mail]

Not disagreeing with you, but would emphasize your own words that certification does indeed tell you a person hasn't merely read a book and put Java on their resume. This isn't a trivial thing- the real point of certification in my opinion is to increase the chances of getting that interview. If one is looking to fill a lower level position, an applicant with the SCJP cert does show the person at least has a good core understanding of the syntax and basic components of the Java environment. It means nothing more than this, but when one has lots of resumes, the applicant with the cert is going to have the advantage if only because they are more likely to get an interview (depending of course on other elements of their resume as well.)
If you only hire mid and senior positions, certification obviously doesn't matter one iota.

[Mark Herschberg]

There are two types of contracts. One is for contract employees, where the recruiting firm basically gets a cut of the hourly wage the customer pays. The other is flat fee placement, typically around 25%. (Some firms also use retainers.)
In any case, it's a free market. For the latter type, demand is high, so companies are willing to pay big bucks to recruiters to bring in talent. Because there was no cost to the job seeker, they started using recruiters. Pretty good model. Personally, I don't think they're worth 25% of my salary. I do think good oes do add some value to my search, but I probably wouldn't pay too much for it; but as I said, I don't have to pay anything, so I'll keep using the good ones.

As for the first type, beause its a free market, they are leveraging information to make money. Namely, they know they can sucker some junior programmer who's making $20/hr to make $30/hr, but that they company is willing to pay $60/hr. If the junior programmer knew that, and could take on the added responsbility of the legal issues (evn if just contracting out flat rate to a lawyer), he could make a lot more--and many independent consultants do. The one thing the recruiting firm does offer its customers is reliability--if this programmer quits, we'll get you another.
Yeah, it sucks thinking about people who produce nothing and make lots of money. It also bothers me that a 29 year old guy in software sales made $160k base last year, or that kids just out of school became millionaires because investors that .com=$$$ But I've given up worrying about others. As long as I'm happy with what I do and how much I make, that's all I care about.
--Mark
[e-mail]

[Angela Poynton]

Well according to the salary calculator I could earn $152,000 ... that is about �102,000 GBP which is just over four times what I earn now ... fact is I've never seen a position that would take me on for that much. What the salary calculator doesn't take into account is actual experience which is what recruiters look for. Yes I said I was solid on Servlets and EJBS because I do understand them and have written a few but employers expect you to have been coding for at least 2 years before you can earn �35000 here in the UK ... maybe it's different in the US ... God I wish I could go over there if it is!

[Jim Baiter]

I am ok with what I'm getting and I'm sure that it's not
people like Heidi who get the $80K per year off of every
contract they place. I'm sure it's probably people like
Arthur Anderson who pick up the bulk of this margin and
use it to buy more yachts .
Angela, right now in the US, I wouldn't say you could get
$55K or L35K for less than 2 years experience. However,
if the economy recovers it sure can be true. When I was
working at Borland I hired a fresh grad. for $60K so it
definitely isn't out of the question.

[Heidi Golledge]

Hello all!!
Whew -- this seems to be a HOT topic!! For what it is worth, we as recruiters should try to do our best to make your job search easy, focused, and to get you the job you want.
What types of things can a recruiter do for you? Negotiation is key. They can help you negotiate stock options, starting salary and bonuses. Tell the recruiter everything up front - what you make, what you want, and what kind of job you want, in terms of technology, start up, etc.
These are the types of things you should know going in:
~ What location do I want to focus on? Will you relo to get the right job? --- consider all factors before flying around and deciding, like Dorothy 'there is no place like home'.
~ Do I want to 'risk it all' and go with a small start-up, or would I feel more comfortable 'going corporate' and working for a large, stable company.
~ Current salary
~ Desired salary
~ Would you consider less salary and more stock - or are you an only cash talks type of employee.
~ Is technology more important then pay - this you should really consider. As a recruiter, with your best interests at heart, for example, I would rather place you at a Java/C++ position that pays $80k then a Delphi job that pays $90k. Why? Because in a year your skillset will be outdated.
My best placements? Placing someone that was a java developer into a java architect role -- sure, they made $30k more - but the thrill of learning new technology and leading a team was so rewarding for them, that it made it a pleasure to place.
By the way -- I do perm placements. I like to see someone join a team, and be happy there.
------------------

Thanks! =)
Heidi Golledge
Director of Recruiting
[e-mail]

[Jim Baiter]

I don't get the negativity towards contracting. I have worked
at almost every major player except M$ in my career (BEA, Oracle,
Borland, Cisco, etc.). The experience is fantastic. I could have
just stayed back home in New York and taken a perm job with Kodak
but why? I've also worked with people such as Martin Fowler and
Jim Odell. Hey - I'm not going to stereotype and put down
the people who took the perm job - I'm sure there're plenty of
great stories there too. Just don't you do it with contracting.

[Heidi Golledge]

Hi Jim!
I would never put down contracting, in fact, it is a GREAT way to develop a strong skillset. I am just saying that I personally do not specialize in contract positions.
I do, however, work with large consulting firms, and many of my candidates have a GREAT time being flown around the country learning new technologies. They also like the fact that every 3-4 months their job changes, so they are truly 'coders' and not maintenance people, cleaning up the site after it is created.
Heidi
[e-mail]

[This message has been edited by Heidi Golledge (edited February 07, 2001).]

[David Roberts]

I couldn't find the salary calculator... I must be blind.
------------------
David Roberts, SCJP2

[Peter Tran]

David,
I think they took it off, because it can become a liability when you can't get an offer quoted by their calculator. Don't worry about it, it wasn't very accurate for all the reasons we mentioned earlier.
-Peter

[Heidi Golledge]

Hi guys!!
Actually - we have so many candidates now from other fields - wireless, optonics, etc. that we are doing site revisions. However, here is the salary calculator link directly:
http://www.cybercoders.com/developer/salary_calc/default.asp?ad=mooseheidi

[CyberHeidi Golledge]

Interested in new positions?
Try:
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=8

[CyberHeidi Golledge]

New Java position!
http://www.cybercoders.com/developer/profile/jobDetails.aspx?posId=CW_NEWPORT_JAVA&rowID=12933&ad=searchengine

[George Lawniczak]

Originally posted by M Prembroke:

Not disagreeing with you, but would emphasize your own words that certification does indeed tell you a person hasn't merely read a book and put Java on their resume. This isn't a trivial thing-

It is trivial when you consider that you can miss 23 questions on the exam and still pass.

[stara szkapa]

And another 10 questions you have no answer to you will just guess correctly. :roll:

[CyberHeidi Golledge]

Hi!
Positions for engineers are picking up!
We have jobs at:
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=1
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=2
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=3
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=4
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=5
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=6
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=7
http://www.cybercoders.com/jobIndex/enterJobs.aspx?p=8

[Randall Stevens]

The link to the salary calculator didn't work. It took me to a place to enter a resume and profile. After I completed all of the information and searched on jobs, I received 0 hits in my state. Overall I only had 7 opportunities match across the entire U.S. I get better odds in my daily newspaper.
And before anyone tries to be a smart-aleck, I used single keywords (Java, Smalltalk, VB.NET) with the any word match selected.

[Andres Gonzalez]

Heidi, you're using .NET

[CyberHeidi Golledge]

[Al Newman]

Don't lose hope, Heidi! You can always sell the house, change your name, move to a new city, and change profession.
You may yet live down this deadly mistake...

[David O'Meara]

"CyberHeidi Golledge",
Your display name is no longer valid. If you have lost the password to your original account, email a sheriff anf they will sort it out for you.
Otherwise your account will likely be deleted.
thanks,
Dave