is this job market ever turning around

[rich heaney]

I have been a programming enthusiast since I was in high school and all i wanted to do in life was to code myself into oblivion and yet here I am 3 months from graduation and with no job. I have a bachelors in Systems Engineering and have a years (internship) experience, as well as a SCJP certification...i always resisted the many oppurtunities to jump ship and join a start up always thinking that these jobs will always be here and it was more imp to finish school.
I know the optimists in you think that it will get better soon...but what i wanna know is when? if ever and even if it does turn around will it ever reach the level of boom that it started sliding from?
rich

[Tony Alicea]

I hope not since that would be making the same mistakes all over again, wouldn't it? (Unrealistic over-hiring.)

[rich heaney]

overhiring ha! thats what they are saying Now...what happened when smaller companies were struggling to find appropriate labor and we had to import all these foreign workers (who poor souls are stranded in a foreign country and are in just as much shit as their american counterparts)...anyway back to me...i am a fresh grad and will cost these companies drastically less than all the laid off overly experienced wise guys...i mean computer programming isn't rocket science and when it comes to newer technologies i am just as apt as anybody else i don't care how experienced...so when are these companies gonna Hire ME??

[John Coxey]

Rich Heaney:
If you are still in college - and have an internship and SJCP under your belt - you are ahead of the game.
I do hope that you participated in on-campus interviews this year.
You may have to be flexible and jump onto the production support or C++ bandwagon - since you lack the magical 3 or 4 years of Java experience.
If I were you, grab one of these production support jobs - pay around $15/hour here in Denver. It's not great - but you are at least in the IT industry.
Next step. Save $$, pay for some real-world training like XML, EJB, Servlets. Never stop learning. The more skills you can throw on the resume - the better you look to an employer.
Remember, 90% of the job search is a marketing game. Keep that in mind.
-------------
I have 3 college degrees (BS-Applied Math, BS-CompSci, MS-CompSci). Been in the game for 4 years now. Yes, I am getting phone calls, but it is slow going.
Denver has 2 big high-tech career fairs this week (www.brassring.com) - will get a better feel for market today.
You may also need to consider relocation. Some areas are better (economically) that others.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Aleksey Matiychenko]

Being young and less costly never guarantees the job. It really should not.
Being young and more apt in the newer technologies dos not replace general experience in System development. Some things are obtained by experience only.
As far as a market turn around. In New York the Java market is still alive. I have four years experience and get calls from recruiters continuously. May be you guys should consider coming to the big apple

[John Coxey]

Aleksey Matiychenko:
I think you hit the nail on the head - "3 to 4 years experience" - seems to be the ticket these days. I saw the same b.s. pulled in the trucking industry 15 years ago.
Went to Boulder, CO job fair (about 30 miles North West of Denver). Place was packed. It took me over an hour to talk with Lockheed Martin about some Java work they have.
I also talked with Raytheon - no local Java work - but might have some in Pennsylvania. They want to bring me in for an interview next week - for a C/C++ job. Fine, I will talk to them.
So after two hours - I saw two companies. Must have been 20 people in line to talk to BEA Weblogic - I said forget it and came on home.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Tony Alicea]

"i mean computer programming
isn't rocket science and when it comes to newer technologies i am just as apt as anybody else i don't care how
experienced..."
I don't believe that for a second. You overestimate yourself. Don't let it show in an interview.

[M Prembroke]

It'll take at least two years for the market to turn around probably. Companies are still laying programmers off left and right-they are still contracting. My guess is that the market will bottom by the end of the year but then stay there for a long time.
It will be very hard to get any kind of entry level position because not only are there many experienced unemployed people, but lots of H1s are around, who presumably have some experience. It's just cheaper and preferable to hire someone like this than to take risks on someone with little or no experience.
Even with all this, there are always exceptions, but for the vast majority of new grads, things will be enormously frustrating.
Eventually many of the unemployed and experienced folks will be forced to take on other careers like selling real estate, insurance, or cars, freeing up more positions. If your financial needs allow you stay unemployed yet persistant for a long time though eventually you'll find something. Also the H1 cap will expire after 2003, which will gradually help.

Originally posted by rich heaney:
I have been a programming enthusiast since I was in high school and all i wanted to do in life was to code myself into oblivion and yet here I am 3 months from graduation and with no job. I have a bachelors in Systems Engineering and have a years (internship) experience, as well as a SCJP certification...i always resisted the many oppurtunities to jump ship and join a start up always thinking that these jobs will always be here and it was more imp to finish school.
I know the optimists in you think that it will get better soon...but what i wanna know is when? if ever and even if it does turn around will it ever reach the level of boom that it started sliding from?
rich

[Aleksey Matiychenko]

Look.
I am actually involved in on-campus recruiting for my employer. I go primarily to my former school that is not the top on tech list. My company just went throug a big merger and is laying off around 6000 people.
Despite that our numbers for new trainees increased from last year.
The company though is not in IT industry so may be you guys don't count employers like mine.