When I was your age, we didn't have an internet bubble...

[Mark Herschberg]

Is it just me or are kids today going soft? OK, I probably qualify as a kid myself, but that's not the point.
My views of the job market were based on what I read about it from the 60's and 70's, and saw in the 80's and early 90's. In the 60's and 70's, people stayed with a company for years on end. If your company relocated, so did you and your family. In the 80's companies merged and people got laid off. It was rough, because people weren't used to it. Even up to the early 90's (90-92), when there was a recession, the job market was bad. I remember college grads (even those from MIT) having a hard time finding jobs back then.
But these last few years, things were wild. You posted a resume and got 100 responses within a week. Companies were begging you to join them. People job hopped like a rabbit on steriods.
I get the impression from a lot of younger people, both here on the ranch and elsewhere, thay they think this is the way it should be. That you don't get weekly calls from recruiters means the end of the world.
I look at this time as not too bad. Most people generally have money. Most people have jobs, just not ones with sky high pay like the last few years. People with competent skills can get jobs; just notnecessarily anyone who can pick up and read an HTML book.

I'm curious what other people think (and for those who reply, what's your level/years of experience). A lot of people who entered the market in the last few years act like its the dark ages. What do those with 10+ years expereince think? Is it really so bad? Is it still even moderately good?

--Mark
[e-mail]

[Michael Pearson]

I have 8 years of work experience since graduating with a B.Sc. in Electrical Engineering in 1993. I don't think the job market is that bad.
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The job market does seem too particular to me. If I like the job I have why would I want the exact same job somewhere else? A change in location doesn't change the technical interest I have in the work I'm doing. If I try to do something a little bit different than my current job description the recruiter or HR shuts me out.
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Most of what I see is companies that are afraid to let someone have a little learning curve when they hire them. Everyone wants to keep their employees and steal trained personnel from other companies that match their perfect candidate. I don't think that business model works for long in the real world. Good companies create intellectual knowledge and recruit and retain quality people.
Michael

[John Coxey]

Mark:
The worse job market I ever saw was when the steel mills laid off in Pittsburgh, PA (1979-1981). I had several uncles (with families) laid off at the time. My dad sold washing machines & dryers - so while not laid off - times were still pretty lean.
When you see mile after mile of closed steel mills - it makes you stop and thing. I remember the day they closed the South Side Mill - mill complex is like 3 miles long - something like 30,000 workers laid off in one swipe.
I remember going to UPS (United Parcel Service) for a job - and standing in a line of about 100 other guys. It was rough back then. Couldn't even get a job at the 7-11 store.
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Market now is soft. It's not dead - if you have the education/credentials. I definitely do not think we are seeing the crazy hiring that wend on the past could of years - where you could get the SCJP2 (no degree) and possibly get a $30K/yr or more job.
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Market seems to be picking up the past two weeks. Been getting 2 or 3 phone calls a day now - versus 2 or 3 phone calls a week.
Am flying out to PA in the next week or two. Company is still making arrangements.
Raytheon here in Denver called. They are planning on making me an offer - and may have some Java work. Previously saud all they had was C/C++ work.
Hewlett-Packard called - finally, after 6 months of a hiring freeze. They want to talk to me.
I had two recruiters (head hunters) here in Denver call me today. I am having an interview with one on Thursday.
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Yes, I am spoiled. After 8 yrs of college - and 2 back to back layoffs - I want to get some steady employment. And yes, I do get short tempered with the whining/crying that is so prevalent on other discussion groups/boards.
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Joel Cochran]

I have 10 years of experience in the work force, about 5 of which have been in IT. I have always been amazed at IT turn over. At my previous company people would jump across the street for a $2000 raise and casual Fridays. A lot of the programmers had actually worked at this company before, quit to go somewhere else, come back, go somewhere else, consult for a while, come back, getting small increases all the while. It was crazy, everyone in that area knew each other because at one time or another they had all worked together. Not to mention some of them were getting ridiculous salaries and couldn't code their way out of a paper bag!
There is no company loyalty in corporate America. I like to think I had as much as anyone...when I left it was only for a geographic move, same salary and fewer benefits. One of the IT news rags a year or so ago even suggested that staying with a company longer than three years is considered a weakness in IT hiring.
[sidebar]
Interesting how professional sports has mirrored this conversation. I'll never get over the SuperBowl MVP (97? When GreenBay won...) signed with ANOTHER TEAM the day after the SuperBowl. Talk about no loyalty! The question that remains is do they simply reflect their times or do they truly influence our culture?
[/sidebar]
Basically, I think the "grass is always greener" syndrome is getting old. There is something to be said for stability and something else to be said for happiness. There is no perfect job. No one will pay you six figures right out of college to sit at home in your underwear and play Quake. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. Most often, the change that has to occur is in the expectation level, and I think that applies to the companies as well as the employees. Yeah, you may be a JDBC/Oracle/C++/pickatechnology guru, but I promise you aren't the only one. No one is indispensable.
Take this all with a grain of salt: what I'm really trying to say is that if you want a job, you can get one...but only if YOU go get it! Don't sit around and cry because people aren't throwing money at you or recruiters aren't calling you constantly. The 'kids' today seem to think that everything is automatic! Most of them find out soon enough that NOTHING is given.
'Nuff Rambling...
OOPS- I wanted to PS to John... I've been reading your posts over the last few months and I just wanted to wish you good luck, I think you've been handling this whole situation very well. I'm sure you'll keep us posted?
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I'm a soldier in the NetScape Wars...
Joel
[This message has been edited by Joel Cochran (edited May 16, 2001).]

[John Coxey]

Joel Cochran:
Companies have loyalty to the bottom line. People are supposed to have loyalty to the comapny. Or so goes the saying.
In reality, there is no loyalty. Reason why transferrable job skills are so important. If an outfit screws you - you screw them. It's that simple.
What I would like to see is the 60 day layoff notice rule factories are required to provide for blue collar workers - be applied to us white collared grunts. After all, most of us have college degrees...don't we deserve better than 2 or 3 weeks severance pay??
John Coxey
([e-mail])

[Eric Barnhill]

The NFL player you referenced is Desmond Howard, and he was a total bust on the new team, never did anything. He discovered that the line that was blocking for him was more important than he was even though they didn't get the glory. Perhaps there is an IT moral here as well?

[John M. Gabriele]

heh, last week at the quarterly meeting the pres of the division said
there would be no lay-offs. this week, the company-wide email said
staff would be cut by 10%.
well, the 1/4'ly meeting *was* in the cafeteria... maybe he didn't
want food thrown at him.