What can we do to curb CHEATING?

[Dean Jones]

Hi Ranchers,

Ever since, I cleared the SCJP exam,I have been I have been receiving private messages in Java Ranch, with people asking for SCJP dumps.

People seem to resort to cheating rather than hard work to succeed in the exam and in the process insult all others working honestly for the exam.

Can we do anything to stop this cheating and get rid of the so called dumps.

[Nikhil Khanna]

Quite frankly I think Sun should take certain steps themselves. Like changing sets of questions every month or few months. I do no think it will be unfair in any way but will be quite difficult to implement.
Unless they do something like that, the value of the certification will be next to nothing in a few years.

It is virtually impossible to staunch people from asking about dumps.. or to even stop people from providing dumps. I feel the initiative has to come from Sun or even prometric...

[Henry Wong]

Unless they do something like that, the value of the certification will be next to nothing in a few years.

Why do you think it will take a few years? There are many, including me, who give a certification zero weight during an interview. I don't even think I use it to determine whether an interview should be given or not.

Henry

[Nikhil Khanna]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:


Why do you think it will take a few years? There are many, including me, who give a certification zero weight during an interview. I don't even think I use it to determine whether an interview should be given or not.

Henry

Ouch!!!

That really hurts me after 2 months of rigorous preparation. That is why I hope Sun or Prometric do something about it soon.

I can always prove my worth in a interview though- So I am not worried.

You post is really putting second thoughts in my mind about attemting any more certifications...


And I am sorry about the earlier screen name - my eyess are still tires from lack of sleep after scjp. I have changed it now
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Nikhil Khanna ]

[Abhi vijay]

I agree with nikhil,after reading Henry's post, I certainly doubt the real worth of these certifications!

[Ninad Kulkarni]

I also agree with Nikhil

After post reply by great respected author Henry Wong I have also doubt about Sun certifications to do or not to do next certifications.

I honestly did Java language preparation not only SCJP alone

I think Sun have to remove SCJP and all other certification programs immediately because it is a waste of time.

I respect you Henry Wong because you cleared my doubt regarding Thread Question very nicely ultimately you are experienced engineer at
Sun Microsystem and also you are author so explaination from you is no doubt good but now I shocked by your post reply


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SCJP 5.0
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Ninad Kulkarni ]

[Arijit Daripa]

To
Sun Microsystem.
Through Henry Wong

If the certifications do not carry any sort of weightage, why do you hold such exams like SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD etc.? Is it your intention to kill valuable time of those candidates who are investing their time to aquire those certificates or you are running out of money?

Waiting eagerly for reply.

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by niklophiliac:
Quite frankly I think one should take certain steps themselves. Like changing sets of questions every month or few months.

The only way to make cheating useless is to make such a large number off questions, that studying all these questions would be almost an equal effort compared to just learning the material. Hence the pool should contain ten thousands of different questions. But I fear commercially this is not do-able.

And Henry, that does hurt after studying for hours for an exam, and never trying to cheat. But I guess, the studying itself and the gained knowledge is more important then the paper.

[Deepak Bala]

Henry has a very good point. I myself have grown so tired of fake certifications on a candidate's resume that I have started giving it zero weight. I ask about certifications only to check if the candidate tried to cheat or not.

Anyone who has passed the certification without cheating should be able to pass an interview without much effort. So dont sweat guys. Certifications can never do you harm unless you cheat.

The SCJP is not the only certification that suffers from this. Certifications like the microsoft .NET certification and others under the family fall under the same roof.

As always my fingers urge me to rant more but my brain has gone tired of doing the same Search the forum for quite lengthy discussions on this topic. Kudos to those making a real effort to increase the depth and width of their knowledge

[Ulf Dittmer]

To
Sun Microsystem.
Through Henry Wong

If the certifications do not carry any sort of weightage, why do you hold such exams like SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD etc.? Is it your intention to kill valuable time of those candidates who are investing their time to aquire those certificates or you are running out of money?

I think a couple of clarification are in order. In no particular order:

Firstly, I don't think that Henry works for Sun. He used to, but that was quite a while ago. So he isn't really in a position to relay messages to Sun.

It's not Sun's fault if hiring managers don't value certifications. It's possible they could do more against cheating and dumps, but they do quite a bit already.

It's also not Sun's fault if people prepare for an exam without having a good grasp of its supposed and actual benefits.

Clearly there are job markets where certifications are prized, India being an obvious example. So they're not altogether worthless.

There are other reasons besides cheating why people might not value such certifications. For instance, SCJP and SCWCD are purely theoretical exams. Passing them doesn't prove anything about an applicant's ability to create good, maintainable code, nor anything about their social skills or their deeper understanding of computer science concepts, all of which are -to me- more important than mastery of one particular language.

[Arijit Daripa]

Originally posted by Ulf Dittmer:

For instance, SCJP and SCWCD are purely theoretical exams. Passing them doesn't prove anything about an applicant's ability to create good, maintainable code, nor anything about their social skills or their deeper understanding of computer science concepts, all of which are -to me- more important than mastery of one particular language.
[/list]

What do SCJD and SCEA depict?

[Ulf Dittmer]

Well, the SCJD at least involves actual coding, but at least part of it is GUI programming, which isn't much in demand in the Java world, compared to web apps. Plus, it's a solo effort (as opposed to a team effort), of which you don't see much out in the wild.

I don't know enough about the SCEA to speak to that.

[Henry Wong]

I can always prove my worth in a interview though- So I am not worried.

This sentence is the true value of a certification. It give you the skills and the confidence to prove your worth.

There is nothing wrong with getting more certs, if it gives you more skills and confidence. Someone who cheats though, will unlikely get the skills or the confidence. They'll will get a nice piece of paper though.

Henry
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Henry Wong ]

[Henry Wong]

I don't think that Henry works for Sun. He used to, but that was quite a while ago. So he isn't really in a position to relay messages to Sun.

For the record, I do *not* work for Sun. I haven't worked for Sun for five years. Most of the effects from the Kool-Aid has worn off by now.

For more disclosure, when I did work for Sun... I worked for Sun for almost 14 years, and have never worked directly or indirectly with the department that deals with the certifications.

Henry

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:
This sentence is the true value of a certification. It give you the skills and the confidence to prove your worth.

Yes, that is true, but what then is certification worse extra over reading a few good books?

[Henry Wong]

Originally posted by Marc Wentink:

Yes, that is true, but what then is certification worse extra over reading a few good books?

Really?!? You can get the equivalent of a cert by just reading a few good books?

Seriously, some of you may be under the impression that I believe that the cert has no value. It does have value. I am just saying that during an interview, I give it no weight.

I am not saying that the cert is useless. The cert should have gotten your skills and confidence level up... And I am generally not the first round anyway. I am sure that the cert may have help gotten a candidate through first round (HR).

Henry

[Marc Wentink]

Originally posted by Henry Wong:
Really?!? You can get the equivalent of a cert by just reading a few good books?

Better even probably!

Well I would say not 'just reading', but really studying them. If you could invest exactly the same amounth of time and energy in reading, studying and practising java, you could even get more knowledge out it. You do not have to train yourself not to fall for trick questions. A lot of stuff in the SCJP exam is not very practicle. It teaches you, among a lot of usefull stuff don't get me wrong, to see, in a trick question that a semicolon is missing, while the java compiler can do that in a split of a second. (If your IDE does not put a curly line under it even, while your typing.)

So, yes, if your only goal is to get knowledge, you can invest your time better, sorry.

One thing though that made me like the exam, is that you have got a fixed goal to work for. That keeps you motivated.




[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Marc Wentink ]
[ October 04, 2008: Message edited by: Marc Wentink ]

[patrick avery]

I respect everyone who has offered opinions on this thread, although some have been disturbing and deflating.

I am only an SCJA, currenty working toward my SJCP, but I have never studied so hard in my life nor learned so much in such a short time in my life. I know that in the job market some will dismiss my Certs and others will consider them a plus, but working thru SCJA, SCJP, SCJD, SCWCD, SCBCD, etc. seems to me to be a wothwhile path to mastering the vast world of Java, moreso than whatever limited opportunities one may have available on the jobsite. After all, many Java programmers on the job are limied to a narrow subset, i.e. many don't get EJB opportinities, many don't get Web development opportinities, etc.

For myself, even if I found out tomorrow that NO employer would give any weight to certification, I would still pursue this path because it is a small price to pay for a structured and methodical training regimine for mastering all aspects of Java. (Same would go for XML)

Lastly, I should say that I am a manager of developers (as well as a developer) and now that I know first hand how much one must know to pass these certification exams, I would certainly give them weight when comparing otherwise equal candidates.

Thanks, Pat Avery

[Ankit Garg]

I think most of the people know that SCJP alone can't get you a job. For me SCJP is just the first step as I want to do SCWCD and SCEA...

[Dean Jones]

So basically, what people think is that, it is beyond our control to stop cheating or destroying sites/people providing exam dumps.

Best we can do is, be honest ourselves and apply all that we learn during certification at the right time and right place.

[Joe Trevithick]

Don't enable them. Don't help them cheat.
I'm working for the Sun Java Certification for me. Not to get a job.
This whole process has been helpful.
Then I want the next Cert. SCJD. For me. Not to get a job.
Hopefully, when I interview, I'll be able to answer the questions because I prepared, and studied the language. People who cheat, and take shortcuts usually don't last the test of time, or competition.
Not too much can be accomplished without hard work and discipline.
The certs are a structured way for me to learn Java, and test my knowledge.
I plan to test in November.

[Vyas Sanzgiri]

I do not care what a manager or my interviewer says - I am studying for SCJP because "I want it". If any interviewer or manager or forum wants to devalue SCJP or any of my certifications or degrees it is your loss

SCJP, my other certifications and degrees have helped me not only with the knowledge but also with other aspects of programming and approach