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So-Called The New Trend

 
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This is the new trend. IT Slavery, IT sweatshops! Replace workers with talented, poor (was it intentional to keep them poor), naive workers from 3rd World States. This is the end of the IT for US, GB, European born employees. Every single place will use talented, cheap Indian Brain Power, (or other third world country�s). Sun moved some of their development to India, M$ using this plan heavily. Senior programmers wanted for $30K. Well, Chaos starts within. Who is going to pay the loans, mortgages and the debt of the regular citizen who is in IT market for today, and in other areas when tomorrow comes? New Motto "OK folks! Don't phreaking go to College. We are going to employ cheap man / brain power anyway". I am going to make a rather bullish guess: With this unchanged attitude, I give US, GB, and etc another 15 years before the total social chaos.
USA does not need to search for the enemy in Afghanistan. Look at the mirror sir!
Have you ever heard of �the positive feedback� that causes total destruction! ?
[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: ersin eser ]
 
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I believe that Darwin (or is that Thatcher) would have called it 'Survival of the Cheapest'...
 
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I little negative Ersin,
Remember that we don't just churn out code. It take other skills - domain knowledge, requirements gathering/negotiation, customer support/interaction. Much of this is not possible with remote working.
 
ersin eser
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Both sides loose. Corporates win. I did not say that US GB etc born IT professionals are just churn code out. I love USA but I just don't like the way things are developing here (USA) recently.It is a IT pro nitemare.
 
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yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn !
 
ersin eser
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I believe that Darwin (or is that Thatcher) would have called it 'Survival of the Cheapest'...


Err...I believe it's called Capitalism. The last time I checked, my Nike shoes & Izod t-shirts were made with cheap third-world labor costing < $1 a day instead of the $10/hr labor that would cost in the US. In a global economy, companies will only look at their bottom-line and all the ethics essentially go flying out of the window.
By the way I do not believe that Sun or any other company will do any "real" development work in third-world countries. It will msotly be bug-fixing/code maintenance/support kinda stuff. The US still has the smartest people on earth, so you shouldn't worry about all the development work being shifted elsewhere. That ain't gonna happen
If you are smart and motivated, nothing can stop you from getting a job even in this market. It's just that it may take a little longer than usual. I've been through a layoff too about 6 months back, and I know what it's like out there! The only way to help yourself would be to stay focussed & be positive!
[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Junaid Bhatra ]
 
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I would also blame it on capitalism. The bottom line is earnings, revenue, reduced costs.
Did you know that some big companies are also moving to places like Bermuda to reduce costs. ABC recently (last week) had a report on such a firm which would save $40 million in Federal taxes by moving to Bermuda. So they moved......
And now the Congress is planning to move an ammendment saying "Such companies are to be labeled as NOT patriotic and they should be forced to pay the Taxes anyways."
For what its worth..............
- satya
 
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I read the same thing regarding Sun, MS, Oracle and others out-sourcing a lot of their work oversees. I've heard everything from the US programmer being to expensive to being lazy and I'm not going for it. With the state of the economy being really bad right now especially in the IT sector, I feel that the jobs should stay in the US. I believe If it's a money thing then reduce the salaries and I don't think that all of the out of work developers will turn it down. "Some work beats no work" and that's why I'm not buying this whole charade..
Really concerned,
 
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Every single place will use talented, cheap Indian Brain Power, (or other third world country’s).


I personally think you should take back those words ersin. Its not what you feel.India and other third world countries have more than it takes to sustain in the IT field. its not that i am considering all you guys from US, GB and whatever as total nuts. but you shouldnt take away credit away from the indian programmers. Any company will find it a good move to shift their labs to india or other asian countries.
count on the ratio of indians to other country ppl in the development of softwares like the Windows OS, Websphere etc..
better think again.
no hard feelings pal. Have a nice time
[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Dharmesh Chheda ]
 
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George Brown
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Originally posted by Dharmesh Chheda:
.snip. India and other third world countries have more than it takes to sustain in the IT field. its not that i am considering all you guys from US, GB and whatever as total nuts. but you shouldnt take away credit away from the indian programmers. Any company will find it a good move to shift their labs to india or other asian countries.


I hope you don't think for a moment that if the costs in india were the same as in the west that these companies would be outsourcing. Because you'd be wrong if you did.

count on the ratio of indians to other country ppl in the development of softwares like the Windows OS, Websphere etc...


And why do you think that microsoft/ibm shifted operations to the indian subcontinent? hmm?
better think again.


no hard feelings pal. Have a nice time


I find your comments particularly offensive because I am in the process of being made redundant due to a COST-based decision to move all development to infosys in india. Which I do have hard feelings about.
I am good at my job and i excel through hard work. Yet I am being made redundant because of the bottom line. Do you think that has anything to do with how well I do my job ?
Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the cost of hiring and accommodating me in the UK exceeds the cost of hiring three senior programmers in india ?
 
George Brown
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Originally posted by Junaid Bhatra:
By the way I do not believe that Sun or any other company will do any "real" development work in third-world countries. It will msotly be bug-fixing/code maintenance/support kinda stuff. The US still has the smartest people on earth, so you shouldn't worry about all the development work being shifted elsewhere. That ain't gonna happen


Actually it already does happen. It remains the fact that the indian software house in my experience does not work on requirements / system design / standards / etc etc. This work is done prior to the indian software house doing the work and allows them to do their work with the minimum of questions and / or deviations from what is required. The documentation is done in-house, while the coding is done to tight specifications by the indian software house.
And these are new projects and projects in the midst of development, as well as projects needing bugfixes and general support programming.
However I am told that the calibre of programmers doing the work in these companies is not always the highest. What seems to be the pattern is that when a programmer becomes experienced and confident enough, or the programmer is particularly talented, they defect to a job in the US or Europe where rates are high.
Market forces in action again ...
 
Dharmesh Chheda
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It remains the fact that the indian software house in my experience does not work on requirements / system design / standards / etc etc.


well i dont think this statement of yours makes the whole of the indian software industry a jerk.
its ok from your point. You might have had some really bad experiences on which you are assuming that the whole of the indian lot is working haphazardly. But thats not the case.
if what you say is true then we wouldnt have had the software giants like Infosys and WIPRO not to forget MBT and polaris as well.

Or perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the cost of hiring and accommodating me in the UK exceeds the cost of hiring three senior programmers in india ?


Well to some extent thats true .. indias economy allows that. But that again does not prove that the indian programmers are cheaper and work not up to expectations. Its the indian economy which plays a role here ..
 
ersin eser
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I think my English is worse than I thought. I don't see any attack to Indians or any other race in my two posts:
"(was it intentional to keep them poor)
IT sweatshops!
Both sides loose. Corporates win
Corporations Are Gonna Get Your Mama : Globalization and the Downsizing of the American Dream."
This is a corporate reality: Abuse the Third World.Keep them poor & get the job done dirt cheap. For IT field it used to be H1 visas, and etc. Now, they say keep them in their own country , who gives a damn about their retirement, health care and other benefits. Mostly, they are not offering those. They are stealing poor and underdeveleoped countries' future. Go read little bit about the banana trade and see what is going on. There is no difference, everything is about trade and $$$.
Mine is just a Rage Against The Machine.
 
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I think if you look at history you will see that it is inevitable for industries to eventually migrate to countries where it is cheaper to produce the same product.
For example consider shipbuilding. In Scotland, my home country, a lot of people were employed in shipbuilding on the river clyde. Some of the worlds finest ships were produced there. However over time ships of similar quality could be produced cheaper abroad due to cheaper labour costs. And so the shipbuilding industry in Scotland collapsed. However new industries grew in their place to replace this, such as IT and other service industries.
What we are seeing is a similar trend in IT. I am in the IT industry, but I plan on making moves out of it in the next five years or so. I think you will find that newer industries will replace IT, for example Bio Tech / Genetic Engineering / Nano Technology in the long term.
While it is sad that our friends in the third world are being exploited with what you call "IT Sweatshops" over time I think you will find the average standard of living to increase due to increased employment. Which is a good thing you have to agree. An increased standard of living will bring about a stronger economy as well.
At the same time there is the possibility that development will shift from countries where there is the risk of civil unrest. For example if relations were to deteriorate between India and Pakistan, companies such as MS and Sun would surely pull development back to the US, EU. Although hopefully this will NOT happen.

To summarise:
1) Yes IT in terms of development will shift to countries where the bottom line is cheaper. To think otherwise is naive (look at history).
2) In its place new industries will arise and will maintain employment levels.
3) Third world countries in the long term will benefit in this shift due to increased employment.
Just my two euro!
Mark
 
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