Thousands of Java Jobs Available!

[Mark Herschberg]

Good news. It turns out Java isn't really dead. Here I thought it was, because everyone kept saying so. But it turns out there are still plenty of Java jobs!
Monster.com lists 3749 Java Jobs
Hot jobs lists 1000 (which is the max return number it seems)
Career Builder lists 1523
OK, sarcasm aside, Java is not dead. There are plenty of Java jobs out there and the proof is above. I'm sure not every job listed is programming, some might be QA or management, but the majority are java programming ones.
I'm not saying it's not a tough market, especially for junior engineers. But the reality is there are jobs out there. I know companies that are looking, I know people getting hired. I've just seen so many people complaining about a lack of Java jobs that I felt compelled to post this.
--Mark
(Map edited URLs)
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Mapraputa Is ]

[John Fontana]

There has been one ad floating around for the past 6 months...I was wondering why I never got a call back because I was well qualified for the job. I finally called the headhunter that placed the ad...at first he made believe he had no idea which ad I was talking about.
Finally, this man revealed that they pay for an annual subscription to the job posting site. So when they don't have any openings, they just run some 'stock' ads so that they can keep some resumes on file for later on.
As only 4% of people who use these job boards can claim that they found work through them, it is safe to say that many, if not most of the ads up there fall into this category.

[Rob Ross]

I have to say I got my current job from an ad on Monster.com. I had been laid off a previous job due to the constricting economy and was out of work for about 4 months.
The comapany told me that had received 200 resumes as a result of their ad. I am fortunate to have been chosen to work there.
So, I agree with Mark, their are jobs in java available, and they are being filled. But there is obviously a LOT of competition for those jobs. Also, the fact that my company got 200 responses indicates there are a lot of people using Monster.com to locate java jobs.
[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Ross ]
[ April 17, 2002: Message edited by: Rob Ross ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Fontana:
As only 4% of people who use these job boards can claim that they found work through them, it is safe to say that many, if not most of the ads up there fall into this category.

Can you provide a source for this statistic?
--Mark

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Can you provide a source for this statistic?
--Mark

From http://www.imdiversity.com/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=376
In a study involving interviews of 3,000 online consumers, market research firm Forrester Research found that only 4 percent of respondents landed their last job using the Internet compared with 40 percent who got work from referrals and 23 percent from newspaper ads.
Also more on topic here:
http://www.theworkcircuit.com/sr/ss/OEG20011026S0042?comment_status=on
In addition, the high unemployment rate is fairly hard evidence that the job market is tough...
Come to think of it, there may be more competition from computer proffessionals at these job sites simply because they are more likely to use their computer as a research tool. People in other fields may be more prone to using newspapers and personal contacts for their job search...
[ April 18, 2002: Message edited by: John Fontana ]

[Rob Ross]

Originally posted by John Fontana:
Research found that only 4 percent of respondents landed their last job using the Internet compared with 40 percent who got work from referrals and 23 percent from newspaper ads

As only 4% of people who use these job boards can claim that they found work through them, it is safe to say that many, if not most of the ads up there fall into this category.

These are two different statistics, so you can't really equate them. The first implies that only a small portion of the respondents used the internet to get a job. The second implies that almost no one who tried to get a job via the internet were successful. But I don't think that's what the article is saying.

[SJ Adnams]

Rob,
I've seen that statistic before also (sorry no internet links). Most jobs are found through personal contacts (networking) 40% or so. Only 4-5% of jobs are filled through agents.
I have now managed to get a job (thru an agent) so there are jobs out there, but you need to persevere.
Simon

[Sam Kebab]

Congratulations Simon!

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Simon Lee:
Rob,
I've seen that statistic before also (sorry no internet links). Most jobs are found through personal contacts (networking) 40% or so. Only 4-5% of jobs are filled through agents.
I have now managed to get a job (thru an agent) so there are jobs out there, but you need to persevere.
Simon

Good going, Simon! Now punch a hole in the wall for the rest of us to sneak through ;-)
Also, I've taken your advice and I am studying One on One Oracle now....

[Younes Essouabni]

I am a Scjp, and here it's really hard for a newbie to get a job! Are you all graduate?
I am proposed an Oracle training (7 month), is it really a good idea? Will I have more opportunities to find a job after that, or I better improve my java Kung-fu (Enterprise and web stuff )
All advise and comments are welcome!!!

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Fontana:

From http://www.imdiversity.com/Article_Detail.asp?Article_ID=376
In a study involving interviews of 3,000 online consumers, market research firm Forrester Research found that only 4 percent of respondents landed their last job using the Internet compared with 40 percent who got work from referrals and 23 percent from newspaper ads.

As Rob wisely pointed out, the numbers don't tell us anything meaningful for this discussion. It doesn't say anything about the success rate. Heck, it could even be due to the fact that most jobs aren't even listed on the internet! (Yes, I doubt most programmer jobs aren't listed, but it's a possibility not refuted by the data.) It's been shown in studies for years that most jobs, in most fields, are filled through personal contacts.

Originally posted by John Fontana:
In addition, the high unemployment rate is fairly hard evidence that the job market is tough...

High unemployment rate? What planet are you living on? (Just ribbing you, there. :-) Seriously, "high" is a relative term. Personally, I think of lot of people who entered the field in the last 10 years have no real basis for perspective. I remember the recession in '91, when my friends who were seniors at MIT couldn't find jobs. Going back further, we had a fairly sizable recession in 82-83. Frankly, I don't think this recession is all that major.
But don't take my word for it, check out the historical data in this chart
--Mark

[Thomas Paul]

Number of jobs offered on a web site means nothing. Often the jobs listed have been listed for months. They were either filled and the listing was never removed (that happened to me several times while looking for a job) or the company decided not to fill the position and the agency never pulled the listing. Sometimes companies post jobs because they want to have some resumes on file in case someone leaves or in case they get that hoped for budget increase to hire a new programmer. Jobs from agencies are often just smoke and mirrors. They might have a job for an Oracle DBA but they throw in "java" because it's a buzzword. They also may list the same job 10 different ways (that also happened to me) or 10 different agencies may be listing the same job (again, that happened to me).
The fact is that in 10 months of looking for a Java job I had exactly 2 interviews. The first job the company decided not fill. This is why I am now a C#/.Net programmer.

[Donald Nunn]

Hello Thomas. Is it that bad in the Java community? I've been hearing about other programmers making that transition not because they really want to but because they need to make a living to support there families. In you opinion is this something that we all should be ready to consider?

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Number of jobs offered on a web site means nothing. Often the jobs listed have been listed for months. They were either filled and the listing was never removed (that happened to me several times while looking for a job) or the company decided not to fill the position and the agency never pulled the listing. Sometimes companies post jobs because they want to have some resumes on file in case someone leaves or in case they get that hoped for budget increase to hire a new programmer. Jobs from agencies are often just smoke and mirrors. They might have a job for an Oracle DBA but they throw in "java" because it's a buzzword. They also may list the same job 10 different ways (that also happened to me) or 10 different agencies may be listing the same job (again, that happened to me).

Number of months looking for a job without succcess means nothing. Often the interviewee isn't trying. They either send their resume and never followed up (I've seen plenty of people do this) or the candidtate decided he wasn't qualified and simply never applied. Sometimes candidates simply spam every listing they can find, even if they are truly not qualified, becuase they simply want to feel like they are trying, or hoping to get lucky on the long shot. Resumes from some of these candidates are sometimes smoke and mirrors. They may have almost no experience, but they throw in "EJB" and "JSP" which they have only learned about in class, simply because it is a buzzword. They may also apply to 10 different jobs at one company, hoping that maybe if they're not right for the first one, they'll be considered for one of the others.
Sorry Thomas, you just made that too easy; I hope you didn't take the above personally. :-)
Seriously, you and others have thrown up your arms complaining about how hard it is to find a job. I, and maybe some others, can shout back how it's not that hard. Subjective arguments are just that, subjective. I tried to throw some Actual Data(TM) on the subject. I know, I know, our industry doesn't like that, instead prefering to argue based on "common knowledge" (e.g. it's impossible to complete projects in a reasonable time these days if restricted to 40 hour work weeks). I'm not saying you're counterarguments are without merrit. Everything you've said is true. But we can't be sure how much of a factor it really is. Bottom line, can you show just how much the factors you name detract for the overall number of aledged job positions available?
--Mark

[Donald Nunn]

Hello, Mark. I don't mean to dispute your research, however, here is Southern California the job market is real bad. Sure, there may be a job here and there, however, there is not an abundates of Java positions here and If your Jr. level forget it. Also, it seems as If most companies are outsources a lot of there bigger development projects oversees which makes it much more difficult to find work.
[ April 19, 2002: Message edited by: Donald Nunn ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Donald Nunn:
Hello, Mark. I don't mean to dispute your research...

You didn't dispute anything, that's the point.
For months now, people have complained about how bad the market is. Yet I've seen no proof. Is the market worse then it was 2 years ago? Undoubtedly. Is it "bad" in a more objective sense? I have provided hard evidence in terms of available jobs and unemployment statistics. John's the only one arguing otherwise who was about to provide any data, although I believe his numbers don't prove his point, for the reasons I've given otherwise.
I welcome people to disprove my point. Show me, quantiatively why the job numbers aren't accurate. Show me that the employment figures are worse then they appear (certainly some economists would argue that). But if you complain that you're having a hard time finding a job, I'll simply remind you that a proof by induction is inapplicable to this thesis.
--Mark

[Tony Yan]

Hi, All:
As for job ad in sites such as dice.com, hotjobs.com, one worker at a job agent told me the following weeks back: They only have a few very specific job openings, but they still post ad in those websites because they have to update their candidate pool regularly, so that in case real jobs come in, they can response very quickly to beat other agencies.
This is probably true since we have to remember the competitions between agencies are high too. I heard from my agent (he got me one job once) that nowadays he can only send maximum two candidates to the hiring company. So he has to send the best candidates to bid. Therefore, he has to "capture" resume of good candidates all the time.
Therefore, I agree with that the number of java job ad is not a reliable index.

[Christophe Lee]

I think the job market is just that: a market that fluctuates. We're just at a small downturn right now. The best thing to do now is to work hard (get certified, get experience, diversify on knowledge) and do your best. As Mark said, that entails more than simply spamming every employer on the internet.
I can personally atest to the success of that as I am due to graduate in a month and have a really great servlet/jsp development job with IBM lined up.
Now, I guarentee there are tons of unemployed people here more qualified than I am. However, the difference is that I got certified (SCJP), which is rare for an undergrad, and I have tons of experience (two internships and two research), and I worked hard at keeping in touch with my contacts and applying for jobs that I think are good fits.
A few years ago, when my fellow classmates were being gobbled up with 8k signing bonuses, I thought I'd have an easy time. Then the downturn: offers were rescinded and my classmates were bagging groceries (some still are, from a year ago).
I got scared and dug my way into an internship and got certified.
This proved to work as one of the only reasons I got the initial interview was because I was certified.
So, yea...market is bad; that's obvious. But now is the time to position yourself to take advantage of a rebound.
And that's the whole point of a recession: to shake out the weaklings and people who half-ass it. If you're truly dedicated, then stick to your guns (to a certain degree) and work hard. That's the beauty of the market.
Chris

[Thomas Paul]

Mark, I have no numbers to convince you. All I can say is that the java developers that were laid off with me took at least 6 months to find a job. And we were all trying for jobs (I have a family including a child with a disability so I was willing to take anything). My experience was the highest quality that the market is supposedly looking for. I developed some big name EJB applications (including avis.com). And yet I couldn't even get an interview. The big thing here seemed to be that the market was so bad that the few companies that were hiring would only hire people with experience in their industry. In NY that meant that the only available Java jobs were for people who had developed on-line trading applications.
In any case, this whole thing was started because you claimed that a bunch of numbers on a website meant that there are a lot of jobs. Clearly that is wrong. So wrong, that I will probably never code professionally in Java again.

[Thomas Paul]

I just happened to look at the first job on HotJobs.
Minimum Requirements:
* Masters in Computer Science (or Bachelors in Computer Science with 5 years of Software development experience)
* Solid hands on experience with the following a must:
1. Full knowledge of J2EE 1.2 Architecture. (Minimum 3 years hands on experience with server side Java)
2. Solid experience with PL/SQL including Oracle performance tuning experience
3. JSP/Java servlets (3 years)
4. Experience leading teams of at least 3-4 people
5. Knowledge in JDBC
6. Apache Tomcat server (installation and configuration)
7. Ability to take a fully detailed specification, do a technical design using Rational Rose and present it to the team.
Sun Java Programming Certification a plus.
And they are willing to pay $65,000 in New York City. That alone shows how bad the market is.

[Marilyn de Queiroz]

Seems to me that if there were 10 programming jobs for each applicant two years ago and now there are 150 - 250 applicants for each position, the market is worse than it was two years ago. Last year at this time Dice.com had 700+ jobs posted for "Java programmer" in the metro Denver area. In the last 12 weeks they have had 5-10. Not to mention that many companies are still laying people off.

Seems to me that you're being a little hard on people. Have you seen a higher percentage of candidates using "smoke and mirrors" recently than you did a year ago? I seriously doubt it. Probably fewer, because as time goes on, more candidates are getting desparate to get a job, any job, to pay the bills after their savings are used up.

Yes, there are still a few Java positions out there ... and there are about a hundred times as many candidates for each position. Maybe not as big a "recession" as it was in other years (Denver was IT recessed for about 10 years as I recall some years ago), but big enough for the people who are not jobless by choice.

[paul wheaton]

I responded to about 75 ads for Seattle using a Seattle phone number and address. I think my resume is pretty huge. I applied for perm and contract. I did not mention rates. I got one call.
I drove to San Francisco and did the same thing - only with a SF address and phone number. I got zero calls.
I ended up getting a month long gig through a JavaRanch connection.

[Matthew Phillips]

A little over 2 years ago, computerjobs.com listed over 10,000 jobs, in my area, on any given day. I checked today and it is just over 700. That speaks volumes about the economy.
I agree with Mark to an extent. There are obviously jobs out there and out point of reference as to what "bad" is may be a little skewed. No one is going to bang down you door and offer you a job. You need to make professional contacts and work them. If you don't have experience, volunteer to do something that will give you experience. It will pay off in the long run. Patience is important, but in some cases (like my buddy, Tom) it is not an option.

[Jim Baiter]

I would be wary of statistics derived from checking job sites too. Often you may get 1000 hits on some skill set but as many as 50 of the postings can be for the same job due to recruiters posting and multiple postings. I have seen the same post for the same job hit Dice every other day.

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I welcome people to disprove my point. Show me, quantiatively why the job numbers aren't accurate. Show me that the employment figures are worse then they appear (certainly some economists would argue that). But if you complain that you're having a hard time finding a job, I'll simply remind you that a proof by induction is inapplicable to this thesis.
--Mark

How about this for proof: We don't have jobs. Want to disprove it? You've got a bunch of great progammers on this board...got any work for us at your company?

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Marilyn deQueiroz:
Seems to me that if there were 10 programming jobs for each applicant two years ago and now there are 150 - 250 applicants for each position, the market is worse than it was two years ago.
...
Yes, there are still a few Java positions out there ... and there are about a hundred times as many candidates for each position. Maybe not as big a "recession" as it was in other years (Denver was IT recessed for about 10 years as I recall some years ago), but big enough for the people who are not jobless by choice.

OK, let's assume, for the moment, that those numbers were true. Again I ask, so what? Have you ever heard of any industry, at time time which has offered 10 jobs per candidate? I'm simply arguing that the current ratio is "normal" and previous ratio were "high" ( as opposed to most people lately who seemed to take the last few years as "normal" or "good" and today as "bad").
In terms of the number of applicants, I would also argue that many are underqualified and shouldn't be counted. Many people entered the software field by doing web pages in HTML and got into "programming" writing simple Javascript applications. They learned some basic Java, or maybe even just JSPs and call themselves Java programmers. In my mind, they are not qualified for most jobs and really shouldn't be in the business. How many "miners" were the in 1849 who raced out to CA? After a few years, once they learned the gold rush was overhyped, and that they weren't cut out for mining, many returned to their original trades, and left it to the ones who knew what they were doing. The number of miners was overinflated. I can call myself a CEO simply because I'm looking for a CEO job, it doesn't mean I'm qualified or should get one.

Originally posted by Marilyn deQueiroz:

Seems to me that you're being a little hard on people. Have you seen a higher percentage of candidates using "smoke and mirrors" recently than you did a year ago? I seriously doubt it. Probably fewer, because as time goes on, more candidates are getting desparate to get a job, any job, to pay the bills after their savings are used up.

The smoke and mirrors comment was just a paradoy. I simply took every argument Thomas made, and made the oppostie argument, waiving my hands just as vigorously. I know there are some people who inflate their resumes, just as there are some HR companies who go fishing. But I think the numbers in both cases aren't as big as people claim. I'm still waiting to see some hard numbers on job inflation, and not just "I saw a job that looked similar, listed a bunch of places."

--Mark

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Fontana:

How about this for proof: We don't have jobs. Want to disprove it? You've got a bunch of great progammers on this board...got any work for us at your company?

And I have a bunch of friends who do have jobs. Again, the unemployment rate is still below its historical average.
--Mark
PS Sorry, I don't have jobs to offer, I quit my job last November so I could write a book.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
In any case, this whole thing was started because you claimed that a bunch of numbers on a website meant that there are a lot of jobs. Clearly that is wrong. So wrong, that I will probably never code professionally in Java again.

I've yet to see it shown to be wrong, other then people saying it is. (I'm not saying it's right, I just want to see hard evidence, other then people just saying so.)
Let's suppose you don't write in Java again. So what? I am A huge fan of Java. I've worked nearly exclusively in Java throughout my career. However, I consider myself a programmer first, and a Java programmer second. Java, as is any language a tool. (Gosling himself has even said he looks forward to the next language which will replace Java.) I have often argued that the true skills of a programmer aren't knowledge of EJBs and APIs, but of analysis, development, and communication skills.
I began this thread as Thousands of Java Jobs. I suspect if you generalize it to programming jobs, there would be even more. Java is nothing but a medium. I do not believe the death knell of Java is sounding. I also believe there is benefit to become extremely skilled with a particular tool. However, recognize that if you choose to do so, you limit yourself to the waxing and waning of that tools marketspace. Again I say the development marketspace, while not in the irrationally exuberant state of a few years ago, is not all that badly off.
I still claim there are plenty of Java Jobs available, just that, as programmers, we should not become too attached to any one tool.
--Mark
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]

[Mark Herschberg]

In an article by the Programmer's Guild

Look closely at the want ads for programmers in your newspaper. You will find that almost all of them are from recruiting firms. The purpose of these ads is for the recruiting companies to build a collection of resumes they can shop to other companies. The jobs list in the advertisement may have existed at one time, but they are unlike to be open when the ad actually appears. In the New York Times, the number of ads in the Sunday edition from companies doing real hiring is about a 12 a week.

I don't have a date as to when this was written. However the web page is arguing against the H1B program. This suggests to me that it was written prior to the crash. If I am correct in my aummption, it suggests that it's not just in the last few months that job postings have been deciptive. (Of course, if you can show that the real hiring today is less then 12 companies a week, then you have a case.)
--Mark

[Matthew Phillips]

The problem now is that there are still more "programers" than there are jobs. Some of these "programers" are the HTML/javascript with a little jsp types, but they are still playing on the same field as the rest of us. Since they can point to their resumes and show an employment history in the field they carry an advantage over those of us without it. They also compete equally with guys like Tom even if they don't measure up in talent.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Matthew Phillips:
The problem now is that there are still more "programers" than there are jobs. Some of these "programers" are the HTML/javascript with a little jsp types, but they are still playing on the same field as the rest of us. Since they can point to their resumes and show an employment history in the field they carry an advantage over those of us without it. They also compete equally with guys like Tom even if they don't measure up in talent.

How can they compete equally with guys like Tom? The ones I came across when hiring could stand out inside of a 10 minutes phone interview. Heck, you get a big telltale sign when you see HTML and JSP used liberally in their previous work descriptions. Yes, they are some of the "smoke and mirrors" guys, but any decent hiring manager (granted, not necessarily HR), and hopefully most of the not so good ones got washed out with the recent collapse, should be able to figure this out. Sure it means they may go through 3 weeks of of hack candidates before the get to the real ones, but that delay is marginal in the overall scheme of things.
--Mark

[Charlie Sturman]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Mark, I have no numbers to convince you. All I can say is that the java developers that were laid off with me took at least 6 months to find a job. And we were all trying for jobs (I have a family including a child with a disability so I was willing to take anything). My experience was the highest quality that the market is supposedly looking for. I developed some big name EJB applications (including avis.com). And yet I couldn't even get an interview. The big thing here seemed to be that the market was so bad that the few companies that were hiring would only hire people with experience in their industry. In NY that meant that the only available Java jobs were for people who had developed on-line trading applications.
In any case, this whole thing was started because you claimed that a bunch of numbers on a website meant that there are a lot of jobs. Clearly that is wrong. So wrong, that I will probably never code professionally in Java again.

Your last statement is a bomb shell.Would you please expand on it.

[Randall Twede]

john,
i think i ran into the same thing at a temp agency. they advertised for an electronics troubleshooter. i have 15 years experience doing that so i drove for an hour sat in their office, filled out forms left resume. called later and job was filled. later i see same ad. i called and asked whats up with this? he said it he didnt lie. it is filled but its not
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Randall Twede ]

[Matthew Phillips]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
The ones I came across when hiring could stand out inside of a 10 minutes phone interview.

You have to get to the phone interview first. When a position is posted, then the hiring manager (or HR) is going to be swamped with resumes. The good candidates are going to be mixed in with the bad. It is easy to get lost in the shuffle.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Matthew Phillips:
You have to get to the phone interview first. When a position is posted, then the hiring manager (or HR) is going to be swamped with resumes. The good candidates are going to be mixed in with the bad. It is easy to get lost in the shuffle.

I agree, but...
1) That just adds in a time delay. Ultimately managers in this market won't settle, not good ones anyway. Eventually they'll get to the good candidates.
2) I was exclusively in charge of hiring during the first half of 2000, and continues to be very active in it for the next year. We did enterprise Java, not just the usual dot com web stuff. I must admist, at first I got some web programmer resumes and didn't recognize them as such, but it wasn't long before I was able to spot them. Honestly, my personal experience suggests it's not that hard.

--Mark

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I agree, but...
1) That just adds in a time delay. Ultimately managers in this market won't settle, not good ones anyway. Eventually they'll get to the good candidates.
2) I was exclusively in charge of hiring during the first half of 2000, and continues to be very active in it for the next year. We did enterprise Java, not just the usual dot com web stuff. I must admist, at first I got some web programmer resumes and didn't recognize them as such, but it wasn't long before I was able to spot them. Honestly, my personal experience suggests it's not that hard.

--Mark

Mark,
Your resume is spectacular. You're an MIT grad of top honours. If I ever found out that you were having troubles in the job market, I would swim to Tahiti, paint seashells for a living and sell them to tourists!
BTW, it's ok to be a web programmer. It is not easier than writing network or desktop applications...just a different set of challenges, but certainly not easier or reflective of having lesser skills or talent.
In fact, I think that so many dot-coms bombed because they overintellectualized the process, and got sold on expensive-to-maintain systems (courtesy of smoke-and-mirrors). You've seen it before...a CTO at a company using Cold Fusion gets initimidated after reading InfoWorld so he buys Oracle and Websphere for a 10-item e-catalog. All he could think was (in a hypnotized trance): "Must leverage legacy frameworks for the extensibility of e-infrastructures...."

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by John Fontana:
BTW, it's ok to be a web programmer. It is not easier than writing network or desktop applications...just a different set of challenges, but certainly not easier or reflective of having lesser skills or talent.

I agree completely. If you asked me to design a web site, the layout and organization would be all wrong. I'm not claiming it's easier or harder,rather it's different. Well, frankly writing HTML is easier then most programming, creating a good, well thought out web site can be as hard as creating a program. I'm arguing that there are many "web desiginers" out there who are shooting for programming jobs, and are underqulified for them, not that they aren't capable people in an of themselves.

Originally posted by John Fontana:
In fact, I think that so many dot-coms bombed because they overintellectualized the process, and got sold on expensive-to-maintain systems (courtesy of smoke-and-mirrors). You've seen it before...a CTO at a company using Cold Fusion gets initimidated after reading InfoWorld so he buys Oracle and Websphere for a 10-item e-catalog. All he could think was (in a hypnotized trance): "Must leverage legacy frameworks for the extensibility of e-infrastructures...."

I disagree. Granted I haven't done a survey of way, but looking at the biz plans of many of the more spectacular disasters, I think it was more business then technical. Well, actually, I'm sure of it. Most startups didn't have any technically insolvable issues. However, if you look at their biz plans, you have to wonder what people were thinking.
Don't get me wrong, I think pets.com (and many others) was a very good idea. I still think you can make money with a sight like that. People need pet supplies and would be happy to get it delivered, rather then go shop. I just don't see it as a hundred million dollar business. The problem is when you get VC's involved, you need high short term returns, and that simply wasn't right for many of those companies.
--Mark

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I agree completely. If you asked me to design a web site, the layout and organization would be all wrong. I'm not claiming it's easier or harder,rather it's different. Well, frankly writing HTML is easier then most programming, creating a good, well thought out web site can be as hard as creating a program. I'm arguing that there are many "web desiginers" out there who are shooting for programming jobs, and are underqulified for them, not that they aren't capable people in an of themselves.
--Mark

Even in separating web vs other areas of programming, I would guess that the job market trends are parallel...People of both areas use this board and their reports show similar disappointment. It even seems that more advanced programmers would be happy to get a WSYIWYG job...
It would seem that any programmer will be looking to take the next natural step in the field...A good job market allows for this. If it is only senior positions available, then that's not a good market. It also means that companies are not promoting from within.

[Roseanne Zhang]

It is a very bad job market for IT professionals, and it is much worse than 1991-1992 recession in IT job market point of view. I've experienced both, and know the differences.
Why? It is because the ~10 years extremely hot booming IT market created/imported (from other job market or from other countries) more programmers (qualified or not) than demand. IT job market will take longer time to recover than the general job market IMHO.
It is simply because the Newton's Third Law.
View of a physicist, and a software developer, and a non-US-citizen (with a Green Card)
[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Roseanne Zhang ]

[Charlie Sturman]

The Big Picture.
IT spending fits into materials labor and overhead as overhead.
Initially all IT projects cost money.
Most IT projects are sold as money savers,but the savings come back over time.
IT Spending is at FULL STOP.
-Y2K was a huge IT cost with very little return.
Some solutions did add value but not much.
A whole lot of old code/systems were just patched up.
-Next you have the bottom dropping out for all the suppliers
of the dot com driven expansion along with all the new Web IT
for the dot coms.
Neither of the above events will impact the long term demand for IT.
The number of applications that are now possbile with the incredible hardware infastructure
along with great development tools/languages and well trained IT professionals.
The IT application opportunities today are GREATER than the opportunities
that were created with the introduction of the lan,unix and the pc!