Fraudulent Job Ads

[John Fontana]

Look at this:
http://agency.hotjobs.com/cgi-bin/job-search?AGC_PINDEX=CJCTQA9S7&TEMPLATE=/hjpublic/htdocs/agency-job-search.html&RPPG=100
Either the economy has come soaring back without the media knowing about it, or Robert Half Technologies are criminals. They have posted 1000 jobs available (just today) in every possible IT job category, in every major city in the country.
They have been running these ads repetitively every day. I guess nobody can fill them. I got suspicious after applying to five or six of them that I was a perfect match for, and never heard a word from them.
Isn't this against the law?

[Jim Baiter]

Do they keep changing the post date too?

[John Fontana]

Check them out...they are all as if it was the first time it was placed.
I wonder if HotJobs strikes deals with companies to do this in order to falsely inflate their revenue. Let's face it, the job market being what it is, all of the job sites would be showing huge losses right now if they were honest.
Does anyone know if there is any law against this practice?

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by John Fontana:
Look at this:
http://agency.hotjobs.com/cgi-bin/job-search?AGC_PINDEX=CJCTQA9S7&TEMPLATE=/hjpublic/htdocs/agency-job-search.html&RPPG=100
Either the economy has come soaring back without the media knowing about it, or Robert Half Technologies are criminals. They have posted 1000 jobs available (just today) in every possible IT job category, in every major city in the country.
They have been running these ads repetitively every day. I guess nobody can fill them. I got suspicious after applying to five or six of them that I was a perfect match for, and never heard a word from them.
Isn't this against the law?

John,
If cornered, they would probably say they are "preparing" for "projected" needs. In reality, they are probably doing this to "justify" bringing in H1-Bs. They want to be able to say they could not find "skilled" US citizens.
Rich
[ September 23, 2002: Message edited by: Richard Brokways ]

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Richard Brokways:

John,
If cornered, they would probably say they are "preparing" for "projected" needs. In reality, they are probably doing this to "justify" bringing in H1-Bs. They want o be able to say they could not find "skilled" US citizens.
Rich

I thought about that, but usually those ads read impossible skills. There is no way in hell that a position looking for someone with 2-3 years of Flash/HTML experience could not be filled within minutes.
What I am wondering is, what laws are there against placing ads for jobs that do not exist?

[Charlie Sturman]

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/ruleroad.htm

[Richard Brokways]

Originally posted by John Fontana:

I thought about that, but usually those ads read impossible skills. There is no way in hell that a position looking for someone with 2-3 years of Flash/HTML experience could not be filled within minutes.

John,
No, not really. All of the H1-Bs I have worked with had the following "impossible" skills:
6 - Visual Basic only
4 - Visual Basic and Oracle
4 - ASP, Oracle and Crystal Reports
1 - Crystal Reports
1- MFC and Visual C++
It is not really the skills sought in the postings. It is solely the intent of the posting. Are they really looking for "skilled" candidates? Since some "reasonably skilled" candidates are ignored, obviously this is not the case. Either they are "building" a database of resumes or setting up for H1-Bs.
Rich

[Mark Herschberg]

John, I hope you're notifying the appropriate people about this.
--Mark

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
John, I hope you're notifying the appropriate people about this.
--Mark

I wrote a note to HotJobs, and did get a respoinse that it was being passed along to an appropriate department to investigate it. I wrote another note back to let them know that I intended to follow up on it, and that it had damaged my opinion of the site, etc.
Who else could be notified? Think the FTC is the way to go?

[Vic Dayton]

Originally posted by John Fontana:

I wrote a note to HotJobs, and did get a respoinse that it was being passed along to an appropriate department to investigate it. I wrote another note back to let them know that I intended to follow up on it, and that it had damaged my opinion of the site, etc.
Who else could be notified? Think the FTC is the way to go?

Attorney General's office.

[Charlie Sturman]

Originally posted by Richard Brokways:

It is not really the skills sought in the postings. It is solely the intent of the posting. Are they really looking for "skilled" candidates? Since some "reasonably skilled" candidates are ignored, obviously this is not the case. Either they are "building" a database of resumes or setting up for H1-Bs.
Rich

I suspect it is also a way to build e-mailing lists to $ell.If you respond with resume and e-mail address they can build a pretty valuable data base to peddle.

[Mimi Chan]

I know that Washington Mutual, from the www.seattletimes.com, have been posting the same jobs since June.

[John Fontana]

Here's my latest correspondence with HotJobs on the issue:

Hi John,
Thank you for your feedback. We always welcome comments and suggestions from our job seekers.
HotJobs.com is only a venue. This Web Site acts as a venue for (i) companies to post job opportunities and to interact with their placement vendors and (ii) for candidates to post their own resumes for the purpose of evaluating job opportunities for themselves.
HotJobs.com acts as a passive conduit for the online distribution and publication of user-submitted information and has no obligation to screen communications or information in advance and is not responsible for screening or monitoring material posted by users. However, if notified by a user of communications which allegedly do not conform to these Terms and Conditions, HotJobs.com may investigate the allegation and determine in good faith and its sole discretion whether to remove or request the removal of the communication. HotJobs.com has no liability or responsibility to users for performance or nonperformance of such activities. HotJobs.com reserves the right to expel users and prevent their further access to the Web Site for violating the Terms and Conditions or the law and the right to remove communications which are abusive, illegal, or disruptive. HotJobs.com may take any action with respect to user-submitted information that it deems necessary or appropriate in its sole discretion if it believes it may create liability for HotJobs.com or may cause HotJobs.com to lose (in whole or in part) the services of its ISPs or other suppliers.
I hope this information was useful.
Best Regards,
Orville Dyer
Customer Care Specialist
HotJobs.com
1-877-HotJobs

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi Orville,
Thanks for taking the time to write back.
Robert Half's abuse is so glaringly obvious. Other job sites, including the fledgeling craigslist.org, have a quick link next to each job ad to report abuse.
If HotJobs is interested in maintaining the quality and integrity of its content, it will do something more about Robert Half's flagrantly false advertising.
Best Regards,
John Fontana
-----Original Message-----
From: Sitehelp [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 5:29 PM
To: John
Subject: Re: RE: HotJobs.com Support Email

Hi John,
Thank you for contacting HotJobs.com.
In regards to you inquiry, Robert Half is staffing firm, they post jobs on behalf of the client company to recruit, interview, and assess the available talent. These jobs are batch imported into the system.
The hiring companies have complete control over the jobs they posted on our site. They are able refresh jobs, pull jobs that are no longer available from the site, also some employer choose to post job with the same template used to setup former job postings.
If an employer uses the same template for a position you had already apply for, the jobs appears as a new posting, however, the system will not allow you to apply again because it send up a flag that you already apply.
The only way around this issue is to register another account and apply for the position. You may use the same email address, but you will have to change the case of it to set up a new account.
Example: xyzl.com is different than Xyzl.com, which in turn is different than XYZ.COM.
HotJobs.com is only a venue. This Web Site acts as a venue for (i) companies to post job opportunities and to interact with their placement vendors and (ii) for candidates to post their own resumes for the purpose of evaluating job opportunities for themselves. HotJobs.com does not screen or censor the profiles or other information. HotJobs.com is not involved in the actual transaction between Member Companies and their vendors or companies and candidates. As a result, HotJobs.com has no control over the quality, safety or legality of the jobs or profiles posted, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the ability of companies to offer job opportunities to candidates or the ability of candidates to fill job openings.
Because user authentication on the Internet is difficult, HotJobs.com cannot and does not confirm that each user is who they claim to be. Because we do not and cannot be involved in user-to-user dealings or control the behavior of participants on HotJobs.com, in the event that you have a dispute with one or more users, you release HotJobs.com (and our agents and employees) from claims, demands and damages (actual and consequential, direct and indirect) of every kind and nature, known and unknown, suspected and unsuspected, disclosed and undisclosed, arising out of or in any way connected with such disputes.
If there's anything else I can help you with, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Orville Dyer
Customer Care Specialist
HotJobs.com
1-877-HotJobs

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Hi Orville -
Wanted to follow up on the status of this investigation. It seems that Robert Half is still spamming the boards with 1000 phony job postings every day...
I only check on the site one every week or two now, and the quality of posting seems to have seriously deteriorated...I attempted to apply to a few new postings, and each time I get a message that I had already applied. Very curious, considering that there are thousands of qualified applicants looking to fill these positions...
Disappointed,
John Fontana
-----Original Message-----
From: Sitehelp [mailto:[e-mail]]
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 11:45 AM
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: HotJobs.com Support Email (KMM501886V13360L0KM)

Hi John,
Thank you for contacting HotJobs.com.
Regarding the information you provided on Robert Half Technology, it will be passed along to the appropriate department to be investigated.

Your input is always appreciated.
If there's anything else I can help you with, please let me know.
Best Regards,
Orville Dyer
Customer Care Specialist
HotJobs.com
1-877-HotJobs

Original Message Follows:
------------------------
Name: John Fontana
Telephone:
Email: [e-mail]
Browser/Version: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; .NET CLR 1.0.3705)
Server: www.hotjobs.com
Comments:
It should be known that Robert Half Technology has been posting false
job oppurtunities. Their posting cover every single possible IT job
title imaginable. Also, all of these positions appear over and over
again, even though they are positions that would be filled very quickly.
I am curious as to what steps HotJobs.com can make to ensure the
integrity of the job listings. In this case, the recruiter is clearly
spamming to collect resumes.

[Balaji Loganathan]

Originally posted by John Fontana:
Here's my latest correspondence with HotJobs on the issue:

John!..
I got some inspirations from you.I'm going to write letter to www.seek.com.au which is also advertising fradulent jobs escp. in the java field.Its really irritates me.
Regards
Balaji

[Dan Chisholm]

John,
Have you thought about talking with the Java Ranch people about setting up a "Fraudulent Job Ads" page that would document to worst offenders in this area? It would be a valuable service that would allow programmers to avoid participation in a data base building scheme or an H1 visa fraud. Web sites like HotJobs might be motivated to clean up their act if everyone knows that most of the job postings on their site are bogus. Your page could include links to any authority that needs to be notified of the abuse along with instructions on how to use those resources most effectively. A new "Fraudulent Job Ads" discussion forum may also be helpful.
Of course, you could also set up your page independently from the Java Ranch but the traffic through here would really help you get started.

[Travis Williams]

I responded to a posting on Monster.com from a recruiting agency in New York, RHI Consulting. They invited me in the office, when I got there they told me it was a fake ad they posted so that they could build their database for when the economy started coming back. At present they had no jobs for Java developers.
I don't know, I wasn't offended by this, but I could see how some people would be. I looked at it like, hey, at least I got in their office, which is the most response I've had so far.

[John Fontana]

Originally posted by Travis Williams:
I looked at it like, hey, at least I got in their office, which is the most response I've had so far.

I wish that a word other than 'pathetic' could come to my mind after reading that.
You deserve better, Travis, I'm sure. We all do.

[Dan Chisholm]

Originally posted by Travis Williams:

I don't know, I wasn't offended by this, but I could see how some people would be. I looked at it like, hey, at least I got in their office, which is the most response I've had so far.

I believe that advertisements should be accurate. If a recruiting company wants to build a database in anticipation of future opportunities then they should be required to state that fact in the ad. If a recruiting company wants to build a database with the intent of selling the information to another company that will use the information for purposes beyond my our imagination then the company should be forced to state that fact in the ad. If a company places a job ad simply to perpetrate visa fraud, then the company should be prosecuted. Published ads should be accurate.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Have you noticed head hunters are a lot like used car salesmen.
There is historical evidence they would sell you into slavery if the commision was right.
Lots of them are looking for a 28 year old with a MS from Carnegie Mellon only wanting to make $35K to stumble into their hands. If they don't advertise how are they going to find one?