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ignorance is bliss

 
Greenhorn
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Dear Michael Ernest it looks like you are blissfully ignorant about outsourcing.
To begin with these companies are no ply by night shops....most of them have CMM level 4 or higher.
Most of the fortune 10 companies outsource their work...both software development and call center.
It is not just that most product development also happens offshore.so a major part involved in a new release of Oracle happens offsore.
How they do it is because of cheap labor...not really cheap they pay their employees heavily...but the pay in the local currency which equates to a lot less no. of dollars.
Talking of talents....california (silicon valley) is full of immigrants.....these people have a huge part in making software fly....you get the same people in their native country minus the US Visas. They work twise as hard though since they are yet to reach their goals.
I work for a top 5 cunsulting firm and now they are outsourcing a majority of their work to their center in Bombay....and I think it makes sense
 
Ranch Hand
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Wouldn't this make more sense if it were replied to in the same thread that the post that generated these comments is in?
 
High Plains Drifter
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Originally posted by sunil g nair:

Dear Michael Ernest it looks like you are blissfully ignorant about outsourcing.
To begin with these companies are no ply by night shops....most of them have CMM level 4 or higher.


Which companies are you referring to? Most of whom? Just so we're clear, to what are you referring anyway?
Whether a company is CMM or ISO certified doesn't matter to me or to many smaller companies. If you're going after governments and other major purchasing customers, you need those kinds of designations to stay competitive. It's safe to say any company that invests the time and money it takes to document practices and regularly audit them doesn't advertising their services without saying, among other things, who they are. They certainly don't come out of the chute with lowball offers. So which companies are you talking about?

Most of the fortune 10 companies outsource their work...both software development and call center.

By "most of the Fortune 10" are you referring to six companies? I think you can afford to go a little further, say, Fortune 500, and still be right.

It is not just that most product development also happens offshore. So a major part involved in a new release of Oracle happens offsore.
How they do it is because of cheap labor...not really cheap they pay their employees heavily...but the pay in the local currency which equates to a lot less no. of dollars.

Wow. I don't know what I said or where I said it, but you do seem to think I'm new to outsourcing and more, like trade economics.
In any event, outsourcing does not mean "taking jobs offshore." If it's employees we're talking about, that's not outsourcing at all; that's just putting jobs wherever the land and labor are cheap, which is a fine American corporate tradition. The fact that those jobs go across an ocean doesn't really change that, except in the minds of peopel who think some jobs are "American."

Talking of talents....california (silicon valley) is full of immigrants.....these people have a huge part in making software fly....you get the same people in their native country minus the US Visas.

Where can I find this "Silicon Valley" of which you speak?

They work twise as hard though since they are yet to reach their goals.

Oh nonsense. Anyone with goals and a means to achieve them will work hard. Everyone who wants a job says they work hard, and any group that needs jobs says they're all hard workers. That's just human nature and rhetoric.

I work for a top 5 cunsulting firm and now they are outsourcing a majority of their work to their center in Bombay....and I think it makes sense

I thought the whole point of being a consulting firm was that you didn't outsource, you hired. Consulting firms themselves are the "outsourcee," aren't they?
I'm a consulting firm, too, by the way, just not a big one. I've done contract work for companies like this one, and this one, and sometimes this one.
I've designed, sold and supported a number of installations using a whole lot of this stuff and that stuff in my high-tech time, so I have some insight to how it gets made and what reliable support generally costs for it, overseas or not.
I don't know much about the economics of working in India, but I bet a small piece of $US8/hour for one's hard-working high-tech skills and years of experience isn't all that big a dream.
[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Michael Ernest ]
 
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M.E. - Reading your reply and the title of this thread, I could only believe your life is not full of bliss.
 
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Originally posted by sunil g nair:
Dear Michael Ernest it looks like you are blissfully ignorant about outsourcing.
To begin with these companies are no ply by night shops....most of them have CMM level 4 or higher.
Most of the fortune 10 companies outsource their work...both software development and call center.
It is not just that most product development also happens offshore.so a major part involved in a new release of Oracle happens offsore.
How they do it is because of cheap labor...not really cheap they pay their employees heavily...but the pay in the local currency which equates to a lot less no. of dollars.
Talking of talents....california (silicon valley) is full of immigrants.....these people have a huge part in making software fly....you get the same people in their native country minus the US Visas. They work twise as hard though since they are yet to reach their goals.
I work for a top 5 cunsulting firm and now they are outsourcing a majority of their work to their center in Bombay....and I think it makes sense


But then again when your exp is limited to projects in which you only touch on Java or computer science you are limited to only getting those projects..
usually it takes some business exp to get the other projects....
Most outsourcing occurs in that the company chooses this route because:
-They can get a consultant loyal to their buisness motives
-They can get a consultant exp in their business
-They can get a consultant with the required business skills..

For example a Bank or Utility wil be looking for actual business exp within their industry on top of programmign skills and proejct exp..
The arguement of India lower wages instead of US higher wages has no role to play in this decision..
The outsourcing of IT and programmers is coccuring at the non-exp level not the exp level fo a project or sub projects..
 
Michael Ernest
High Plains Drifter
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And I would certainly agree that for 'generic' IT skills in which location, domain expertise, and presentation skills play no part, sure you can find plenty of talent elsewhere and probably for less.
One reason I initially expressed reservations over the ad that start all this is that many simple-minded business managers will do everything they can to get kona coffee out of some surplus beans and chicory -- bought in bulk, naturally.
My observations in these cases are generally two-fold. Sometimes management finds ways to rationalize low pricing by revising their expectations downward on each setback. And that's often ok, because they tend to inflate their real needs dramatically out of whack in the first place, and finally use cost as a way of determining what they need through what they are willing to spend.
Second, the first provider often gets blamed for the poor project results -- regardless of what actually might have gone wrong. Then, either another company gets invited in by promising what the first company "failed" to deliver -- which is usually a set of goals that were never communicated, because, y'know, time is money and communication doesn't make money -- or the company repents its short-sightedness and goes back to its old source. Often the old source raises its rates, too.
 
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