SUN favoring Indians!!

[Pradip Bhat]

Sun Microsystems sued for 'favouring' Indian workers
Shakti Bhatt in New York | March 19, 2003 15:11 IST

Sun Microsystems, the Silicon Valley computer giant, was hit with a lawsuit on Monday alleging that the firm laid off thousands of US high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.
Sun Microsystems was co-founded by IITian and venture capitalist Vinod Khosla and Scott McNealy (the current CEO) in 1982. With a market cap of over $150 billion, it is the largest corporation founded by an Indian. After leading the company for four years he left to become a general partner of Kleiner Perkins Caufield and Byers.
The lawsuit comes at a time when US hi-tech workers have mobilised themselves against what they see as discrimination practiced by tech firms in favor of foreign workers.
The target is the H-1B visa programme that allows the companies to bring Indian workers for a temporary period.
As evidence, the lawsuit cites statements made this year by Khosla on a CBS program on IIT where he was quoted as saying that at Sun, people from India 'are favored over almost anybody else.'
The lawsuit, for which class-action is being sought, was brought by Walter Kruz, a 52-year-old, a former software engineer manager at the company. Kruz claims discrimination based on race, national origin and age. He seeks compensation for lost wages, attorneys' fees and unspecified punitive damages.
His lawyer, James Caputo said that the case is unprecedented in its size -- there are more than 1000 plaintiffs. "I get more and more calls everyday," he told rediff.com.
"This case is not an attack on the H-1B visa but the abuse of it by this company which is significant."
Sun's spokesperson was not available for comment.

[Barry Gaunt]

Do you have a link or refrence to this item, please.
Thanks
-Barry

[SJ Adnams]

http://www.rediff.com/money/2003/mar/19sun.htm

[Jason Menard]

I saw the 60 minutes interview. I thought I remembered him saying that people from IIT were favored, not merely people from India, but I could be mistaken.

[vi kam]

I saw the said 60 minutes program on CBS and I thought Vinod Khosla was saying something like .. "People from IIT are favoured by everybody " .. or something to that effect. not "People from India are favoured in US ".. :roll:

[Michael Ernest]

Originally posted by rahul rege:
Sun Microsystems sued for 'favouring' Indian workers
Shakti Bhatt in New York | March 19, 2003 15:11 IST

Sun Microsystems, the Silicon Valley computer giant, was hit with a lawsuit on Monday alleging that the firm laid off thousands of US high-tech workers in order to replace them with younger, lower-paid engineers from India.

It's against the law to find cheap talent with fewer demands on their work environment?

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Michael Ernest:
It's against the law to find cheap talent with fewer demands on their work environment?

Yes. It is an abuse of the H1B program which is illegal.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Where did I read IIT turns out a whopping 160 Comp Sci Grads a year. Are the schools that turn out the other 99,000, 28 year old immigrants on the same level?
On a side note, the prospective IIT student starts studying 12 hours a day at age 8. Do you think that's an abuse of childhood?

[San Su]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
On a side note, the prospective IIT student starts studying 12 hours a day at age 8. Do you think that's an abuse of childhood?[/QB]

I don't think so. If your kid playing computer games all the time without studying, would n't you shout at him/her to get out the computer and study? Will it be called child abuse/childhood abuse? I don't think so. If we work hard, our life would be better. It doesn't matter at what age we do it. If you take any successful persons life in history, at one point of time, they would have worked hard without worrying toomuch about losing the present day world pleasures..
I really don't understand the first part of your message..
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]

[Michael Ernest]

'Child Abuse' is a good red flag phrase, guaranteed to derail this discussion in the most meandering Map-like way possible, so I'll pass on responding to that for now.
More generally, if you can find people in this country willing to do the same job for less than money than the next guy, that's a free market. Assuming we're all here legally to begin with, of course. But frankly I think the H1B business is a convenient handle for the larger problems American corporations seems to have with committing any real energy to the needs of their workforces.
So long as "cheap talent on cheap ground" is how American businesses pursue a better bottom line, it hardly matters if it's an H1B taking the job you or I wanted or not. From my point of view, the call center that runs in Bridgeton, MO takes just as much business away from my call center in San Francisco as one in India might.
If the H1B program is being abused, that's something that should be corrected, of course. If it's truly illegal, then what crime has been committed?

[Gregg Bolinger]

TP: Yes. It is an abuse of the H1B program which is illegal.
Any reference for this fact?
Also, has anyone been able to figure out if it is indeed favortisim for a particular race or favortism for cheap labor? One article says Indians and another article says cheap labor.
Or is this the basis of the entire lawsuit which will be decided in court and no one really knows yet?
Thanks.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Gregg Bolinger:
TP: Yes. It is an abuse of the H1B program which is illegal.
Any reference for this fact?

I think Rufus has the links. The law states that you can only hire an H1B if non-H1B talent is unavailable. The law specifically states that you can not hire an H1B to replace a non-H1Bworker nor can you lay off non-H1B's before H1B's unless the H1B has some special skill not available otherwise. The law states that you can not use H1B's as a source of cheap labor. H1B's are supposed to be paid the prevailing wage.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I don't have the links. Jason is the one who claims you can't legally import an H1-B if an American is available.
ME-
If the cheapest labor available is your mantra, why not open the US-Mexico boarder to all comers? Surely that would drive down the price of a plumber, a carpenter and a telephone repair man.
Hey why not let every Chinese and Indian that wants to come to America get on the boat. Let's have a free market. :roll:

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Where did I read IIT turns out a whopping 160 Comp Sci Grads a year. ...
On a side note, the prospective IIT student starts studying 12 hours a day at age 8. Do you think that's an abuse of childhood?

Have you met any IITian ??
They are gem. I have been with all kind of students at least in India. From regional engg college to private engg colleges.
But when you talk with an IITian or person from Rourkee University. You can see the level of their talk.
Its not only study which makes IITian a different from crowd.
AW I am not IITian
But I have met 6-7 IITian. What I will do in 1 hr they will do same thing in 1/2 hour.
And thats why they were in IIT(Indian Inst of Tech) and I was in GIT (Gogte Inst of Tech.)
You cant call them cheap labour.
Young prof obviously will be cheaper than exp. prof. Can You call it cheap labour ??
Yes if I will come in US for 5K $ pm then I will be surely a cheap labour.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
I don't have the links. Jason is the one who claims you can't legally import an H1-B if an American is available.

http://workforcesecurity.doleta.gov/foreign/h-1b.asp

[San Su]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Hey why not let every Chinese and Indian that wants to come to America get on the boat. Let's have a free market. :roll: [/QB]

Rufus, that is a racial slur, targeting 2 particular communities. I would request you not to do that again.
Did anyone cry foul when all the US manufacturers moved their manufacturing bases to China/Maxico? When walmart imported everything from China and offered it much lowered price, didn't everyone be happy about it? Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business. Did anyone cared about it? Then why cry foul now? I can think of only one word, "Selfish". Sorry if it hurts anyone.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

Rufus, that is a racial slur, targeting 2 particular communities. I would request you not to do that again.
Did anyone cry foul when all the US manufacturers moved their manufacturing bases to China/Maxico? When walmart imported everything from China and offered it much lowered price, didn't everyone be happy about it? Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business. Did anyone cared about it? Then why cry foul now? I can think of only one word, "Selfish". Sorry if it hurts anyone.

First, it isn't a racil slur. He said nothing bad about Chinese or Indians unless you thinking wanting to come to America is an insult.
Second, many of us did complain loudly when the things you mentioned happened. Many of us were against NAFTA, for example.

[Cindy Glass]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

Second, many of us did complain loudly when the things you mentioned happened. Many of us were against NAFTA, for example.

Ah, yes. That "loud sucking sound" we heard as factories left the US .
Put a lot of US workers out of jobs - but heck, it gave alot of jobs to the folks in Mexico and China so that they could actually BUY some of that stuff from Walmart etc.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Did anyone cry foul when all the US manufacturers moved their manufacturing bases to China/Maxico? When walmart imported everything from China and offered it much lowered price, didn't everyone be happy about it? Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business. Did anyone cared about it? Then why cry foul now? I can think of only one word, "Selfish".

Selfish is it. To target one small subset of the workforce with an open immigration policy is the capitalists pigs wallowing at the trough. They are flooding the market with excess supply.
Why can't the economy import as many truck drivers, cooks, nurses, politicians, letter carriers, dog catchers, and auto mechanics as it wants?
There is no free market. Abuse of the H1-B program by Sun, et al, is illegal and needs to be dealt with just the same as Hussein and Bin Laden.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
Abuse of the H1-B program by Sun, et al, is illegal and needs to be dealt with just the same as Hussein and Bin Laden.

I don't think we need to send military units into Sun HQ to hunt down and kill or capture their executives, but that's just me.

[Bhupinder Dhillon]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:
needs to be dealt with just the same as Hussein and Bin Laden.

If someone hasn't already told you, here it is: you're really losing it.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
I don't think we need to send military units into Sun HQ to hunt down and kill or capture their executives, but that's just me.

But I bet that the other companies would clean up their acts real fast!

[John Lee]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
When walmart imported everything from China and offered it much lowered price, didn't everyone be happy about it? Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business. Did anyone cared about it?

Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business? Maybe. But that has nothing to do with import from China. The reason is simple: small shop owner can also sell stuff from China.
When I live in college dorm, we often had small gambling. Loser pay coin first, when they run out of coin, they begin to pay bill. In the same way, winner win coin first, after you won all the coin, you begin to win bill. So money is not won in one shot, just like Rome is not built in one day.

[Thomas Paul]

MSNBC breaking news just came in over my pager. The high-tech industry lost 236,000 jobs last year.

[Jim Yingst]

[Jason]: I don't think we need to send military units into Sun HQ to hunt down and kill or capture their executives, but that's just me.
Yeah, but think if we'd done it to Enron or WorldCom a few years ago...

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Rufus BugleWeed:

Selfish is it. To target one small subset of the workforce with an open immigration policy is the capitalists pigs wallowing at the trough. They are flooding the market with excess supply.

I thought Americans love capitalism. Now, it's followers became "pigs"???

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Don Liu:

Welmart put alot of small shop owners out of their business? Maybe. But that has nothing to do with import from China. The reason is simple: small shop owner can also sell stuff from China.

When you buy stuffs for millions of dollars, you have the bargain power. You can force the manufactures to agree your terms. Can you do the same thing if you buy it for few thousands?

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
MSNBC breaking news just came in over my pager. The high-tech industry lost 236,000 jobs last year.

I bet the first to go would have been the H1 visa holders...

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
[Jason]: I don't think we need to send military units into Sun HQ to hunt down and kill or capture their executives, but that's just me.
Yeah, but think if we'd done it to Enron or WorldCom a few years ago...

Enron & WorldCom? how do the fit in this picture??? Did the go bankrupt because of H1 Visa holders?

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I bet the first to go would have been the H1 visa holders...

You will lose your coins. First to go is older workers.
High tech employees are not capitalists, they are labor.

[Jim Yingst]

Enron & WorldCom? how do the fit in this picture???
They don't really, as far as H1-B's are concerned. But their executives are partly responsible for the current state of the economy, in my opinion, and I found it amusing to indulge in a brief fantasy about how they should have been handled.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Enron & WorldCom? how do the fit in this picture???
They don't really, as far as H1-B's are concerned. But their executives are partly responsible for the current state of the economy, in my opinion, and I found it amusing to indulge in a brief fantasy about how they should have been handled.

Sounds like the makings of an Arnold Schwarzenaeger (sp) movie.

[Derek Grey]

There is no free market. Abuse of the H1-B program by Sun, et al, is illegal and needs to be dealt with just the same as Hussein and Bin Laden.

hey Rufus,
take it easy man!!!....don't make a fool out of yourself.....trying posting sensibly.

[Derek Grey]

Where did I read IIT turns out a whopping 160 Comp Sci Grads a year. Are the schools that turn out the other 99,000, 28 year old immigrants on the same level?

hello again,
So you want to know what kind of level are the other 99,000 engineers....hmm...I can't talk about all of them but I sure can talk about MOST of them.....here's something for you...
In the very same show where they interviewed Vinod Khosla, there was another interview with an IIT professor. He was mentioning about IIT standards and told that his son took the entrance exam but could not make it into the IITs...so where is he studying right now .....CORNELL UNIVERSITY....which I think is one of America's Flagship universities....
Hope it answers your question.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

If it's truly illegal, then what crime has been committed?

Title XX has been violated.
Complaints arising under section 212(n)(1)(G)(i)(II) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(n)(1)(G)(i)(II), alleging failure of the employer to offer employment to an equally or better qualified U.S. worker, or an employer’s misrepresentationregarding such offer(s) of employment, may be filed with the DOJ, 10th Street & Constitution Ave NW, Washihgton, D.C.

Also, has anyone been able to figure out if it is indeed favortisim for a particular race or favortism for cheap labor?

Either case is illegal.
Equal Opportunity says they can't discriminate based on national origin.
Title XX says they must pay the prevailing wage rate or greater.
The law further states employers obligations to include -
to avoid the displacement of US workers ( either in the employer's workforce or in the workforce of a second employer with whom the H1-B nonimmigrant is placed )

[San Su]

American legal system is one of the best in the world. If H1B is abused, I am sure it will be checked by the Law enforcement agencies. So far, I have seen only accusations.
Rufus, Could you please provide information about how many H1B visas issued this year and how many of them are IT workers?

[Paul Stevens]

I went into Welmart today because my leg hurt and they threw me out.

[San Su]

Originally posted by Jim Yingst:
Enron & WorldCom? how do the fit in this picture???
They don't really, as far as H1-B's are concerned. But their executives are partly responsible for the current state of the economy, in my opinion, and I found it amusing to indulge in a brief fantasy about how they should have been handled.

Jim, Thanks for clearing it up.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Despite the 120,000 high-tech professionals (electronics engineers and computer scientists) estimated by the Department of Labor as being unemployed in the fourth quarter of 2002, the Immigration and Naturalization Service is reporting that it processed 294,100 H-1B petitions in fiscal year 2002 in new, renewed and exempt categories.

See the whole posting here.
Most people assume that our government tracks where H-1Bs are, whom they work for, how much money they earn, and other essential facts necessary for running a visa program. During the Immigration Subcommittee Hearing in 1999 Lamar Smith (R-TX) verified that this tracking is not done when he suggested that the INS should develop a system to track the immigration status of individuals on petition-based visas after they enter the country.
FAIR Congressional Hearings: House Hearing on Nonimmigrant Visa Abuse Immigration Subcommittee Hearing -- May 5, 1999
The zazona guy gives some ideas about demographics
that can be seen here.
I've seen other sources that indicate the number in engineering/IT are much hight than he indicates.

[Chris Mathews]

Originally posted by San Tiruvan:
So you want to know what kind of level are the other 99,000 engineers....hmm...I can't talk about all of them but I sure can talk about MOST of them.....here's something for you...
In the very same show where they interviewed Vinod Khosla, there was another interview with an IIT professor. He was mentioning about IIT standards and told that his son took the entrance exam but could not make it into the IITs...so where is he studying right now .....CORNELL UNIVERSITY....which I think is one of America's Flagship universities....
So you are trying to say that all people that don't make it into IIT go to Cornell?
[ March 19, 2003: Message edited by: Chris Mathews ]