How will hire your team ??????

[Charles Hickman]

You are the Hiring Manager. You have a project in your hand with complete funding allocated to the project. The project is a 6 month+ extendable longterm project.
Here is a typical skillset requirements for the two new positons in your team.
Skills required: Java, J2EE, XML,XSLT, OOAD

You already have 3 people in your team. And you are looking to hire 2 more candidates.
Some of your immediate personal goals are that you want that promotion that you have been looking for for long time. The new changes and improvements you bring to the team will have a positive effect on your role in the company..
So making any new decision in the team is highly critical.
How will you conduct the hiring process and who will you hire .. what do you want to see in the candidate???
Here are some choices you can make
(1)Hire a good looking girl that you can flirt with at work.
(2)Hire an H-1 B Indian guy whom you have to train for a year, before he is performant.
(3)Hire an experienced professional with 5 to 6 years who has proven experience and work record.
(4)Hire a male with low profile that you can command on him when ever you want.
(5)Make your team diverse so that it is very multicultural.
(6)Hire your opposite sex.
(7)Hire a Sun certified professional.
(8)You will interrogate the candidate
(9)You will psycologize the candidate.
(10)You will let your architect interrogate the candidate.
(11)You will conduct sequential interviews meaning you.you will let your team interview the candidate sequentially. Meaning every body in your team interviews the candidate one after the other.
(12)You will conduct a single interview with all your team interview the candidate at one time.
(13)You will try to hire one of your relatives as you have some favoritism towards your relatives.
(14)You will hire a candidate with computer science degree or related degree.
(15) Outsource the project to a company in india.
(16) Hire an L1 candidate.
(17) Hire a candidate with good attitude.
(18) Hire a candidate who can walk on the water.
(19) Hire a candidate who is technically very strong but poor at communication skill.
(20). Hire a candidate who has excellent at communication skills but technically average.
(21). Hire a candidate who is technically sound
(22). Hire a candidate who has good interpersonal skills.
(23). You don�t really care about interpersonal skills as long as the candidate is technically strong.
(24). Hire your high school or college friend from back home.
(25). Hire only males in your team.
(26). Hire only females in your team.
(27). Hire workoholics.
Please provide your answer of how you are going to do your hiring process. you can either choose from the above list or you can make up your own answer. Also you can choose a combination of choices from the above list.
Now please provide a frank answer. This will help people like me and some of the folks who are looking for jobs.
Thankyou
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]

[Mark Herschberg]

First I want to remind people that these are public boards. So if you make a joke about hiring a good looking guy/girl, remember that it can and will be used against you in court.
That being said, here's are my comments...
What are the 3 people on my team like? What are their strengths and weakness? Do I already have a DB expert or do I need to get one, or not need one at all? Do I have someone good at mentoring? Do I have someone good at learning who needs a mentor? How tight is this team? How will new people effect team dynamics?
What are the constraints? Is this new code or existing code? How quickly will someone be able to understand it? Does my current team understand it? How easy is it to learn the domain knowledge? How about learning the ropes at the company? How will the work be divided? How much communication is needed between each team member? How much will outside factors effects the scheduling?
How long will the people be needed? What skills will they acquire and what benefit is there to leverging those skills on future projects? What are the long term plans for the project? the team? for my involvement with the project and/or team?
What is the status of the company? the industry? the economy? How stable is this project? How likely is it that project will change and by how much? Could the project be canceled? Who else is involved in the project and what are their interests? Who are my allies and adversaries?
What are the time and complexity constraints? How soon do I need to hire someone with particular skills? Is it easier to train a current team member and replace his/her skill set with a new hire? Are there any skill/knowledge bottlenecks forcing hiring deadlines? Can I borrow/steal people from other teams within the company? How easy is it to find people with these skills (EJBs may be a common skill, by its far more common in NYC then in Zaire)?
--Mark
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Mark Herschberg ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Now for some specifics:
1, 4, 6, 25, 26
Right out not only for legal reasons, but because you unnecessarily limit the applicant pool.
18
Again, the law prevents religous discrimination. :-p
5, 13, 24
Again this seems to place unnecessary constrains on the applicant pool. Note that 13 and 24 are useful in the sense that my relations do help me populate the local candidate pool from which I will select. The are open doors, not closed ones.
4, 27
Hiring people you can "use" or take advantage of will usually backfire, unless its for very short term work.
17, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23
It depends, I consider both communication and technical skills. Also understand that there are two types of communication skills. The first is just being able to communicate with team members. The second is being put in front of a customer. I know engineers who are decent communicators but who I would never show to a customer! Most projects involve a few roles, so if you have a sandal and jeans wearing genious, he might be great for the team, so long as there is someone else who can talk to the customer nad not him.
2, 15
What are the constraints? Can I afford to spend the year training the guy? I don't mind training costs if there is a payoff. In this case, 1 year of training for a 6 month project seems like a bad idea. Similarly without sourcing. Given the nature of the project can I outsource some of it overseas without hurting overall team communication and dynamics?
As an example, I'd general be hesitant to split a 6 person team into two groups half a world apart. But maybe one part of the project involves data migration, specifically creating a tool that takes old text files of data and reformats them into a new schema. That seems like somethng relatively easily ot outsource once the new schema is set.
(These comments are not specific to the county, race, or ethnicity mentioned in the question.)
3, 7, 14, 16
I value CS degrees. I greatly value experience and good records. I do not value Java certifications. I weight these on a case by case basis. I do not know what an L1 is.
8, 9, 10, 11, 12
I would have one person do initial screenings (or multiple people in parallel). Then I'd bring back a few promising candidates. I would definately have the full team meet them (for such a small team) before hiring. As for the particulars, that varies on a case by case basis.
Of course, there are plenty of hiring managers how are sexist, short sighted, mean, manipulative, stupid, etc.
--Mark
----
Legal disclaimer: I cannot be held responsible for how my comments are interpreted if the original message is changed (i.e. which type of person each number corresponds to) after this message has been posted.

[Charles Hickman]

A H-1 B is a business visa in which you do need not be employed prior to getting H-1B Visa.
However An L-1 visa you are transfering from from one company in one country to the same company or its sister company in a different country.
Companies in india have opened their offices in both countries are providing indian workforce to the companies in US with L-1 visa these days. L-1 visa is A lot greater savings to american companies than H-1B.
L-1 visa just like H1B is becoming very popular and companies are trying to take advantage of it.
Here is a link that explains about L-1 visas.
http://www.worldvisas.com/USA/l1-visas.htm
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Charles Hickman ]

[Bhushan Jawle]

If you are smart enough to evaluate, you should be able to hire smart people on H1B who can be effective immediately. Training someone, for 1 year is absolutely ridiculous. Probably management will take some corrective action before that. So beware.

[Charles Hickman]

Thankyou for replying to my message. I know there are so many factors involved in choosing team members.. lots of it depends on what your existing team is like.
But personally I would like to see diversity in the software development teams. As well as good communication skills + technical skills.
But interviewing with lots of companies these days most of the tehnical interviews are done by Indian guys and they value technical skills more than communication skills. Which I think should equally matter.

[John Lee]

Originally posted by Charles Hickman:

But interviewing with lots of companies these days most of the tehnical interviews are done by Indian guys and they value technical skills more than communication skills. Which I think should equally matter.

Once I was interviewed by two indian guys in california, it is ok, then their manager, a chinese guy, is really tough on me.

[Bhushan Jawle]

But interviewing with lots of companies these days most of the tehnical interviews are done by Indian guys and they value technical skills more than communication skills. Which I think should equally matter.

Communication of a technical idea is one thing and communication in general is another. Most of the time developers are introvert(at least the ones I have met and read about), so somebody in a team needs to be able to communicate well to users as well as developers. All need not be excellent communicators. I believe in this myself

[Praveen Pranum]

I am an indian. I think america is the greatest country in the world because of its diversity.
Every time I get interviewed by an indian guy the interview is going to be tough. I some how feel that even though i am kick butt at my skills the interviewer who is an indian try to bring out some question that I cannot answer. They dont see how many questions you have answered correctly. If you answer one question wrong you wont get the job. In this economy you dont answer one question then you wont get the job. Every body can come out with questions that other person cannot answer. Just to show that you dont have the experience they require. I get interviewed with a chinese or an american usually the interview goes well. I think Indians like diversity just like chinese like diversity.
Indians interview indians tough. And chinese get inteviewed tough by a chinese.
But unfortunately due to the too much inflow of H1 B.. All the technology guys all over are Indians these days. So interviews are very very tough for me. In my last 3 interviews all the interviewers were indians from 3 major companies.

I love every body no matter where they are from
Praveen
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]
[ May 20, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]

[John Lee]

in previous post, the interview i mentioned is a senior c++ programmer position. i also had engineering interviews before. in general, non-IT interview is nicer. i think the reason is that communication skill is more important in non-IT company. people know they have to get along with each other in the future, so they tend to be nicer. but in IT company, the most important is deadline. communication tend to be omited. so people tend to give each other a tough first impression to skip possible trouble later on.

[Chris Mathews]

Originally posted by Charles Hickman:
But interviewing with lots of companies these days most of the tehnical interviews are done by Indian guys and they value technical skills more than communication skills. Which I think should equally matter.

This is a generalization that I personally do not find true. Out of my last six or seven technical interviews, only one has been conducted by an Indian.

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
Every time I get interviewed by an indian guy the interview is going to be tough. I some how feel that even though i am kick butt at my skills the interviewer who is an indian try to bring out some question that I cannot answer. They dont see how many questions you have answered correctly. If you answer one question wrong you wont get the job.

There are people that are good at performing technical interviews and there are those that are not. In my experiences I have not found race, creed, or color to have any particular influence on a person's technical interviewing skills. What you describe is a poor technical interviewer.
As a technical interviewer I typically want to press the limits of the candidate's knowledge. I want and expect them to not know everything and I have yet to come across a candidate that has. However, just because they can't answer every question that I ask, does not mean I won't recommend them for the position.

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
I am an indian. I think america is the greatest country in the world because of its diversity.
Every time I get interviewed by an indian guy the interview is going to be tough. I some how feel that even though i am kick butt at my skills the interviewer who is an indian try to bring out some question that I cannot answer. They dont see how many questions you have answered correctly. If you answer one question wrong you wont get the job. In this economy you dont answer one question then you wont get the job. Every body can come out with questions that other person cannot answer. Just to show that you dont have the experience they require. I get interviewed with a chinese or an american usually the interview goes well. I think Indians like diversity just like chinese like diversity.
Indians interview indians tough. And chinese get inteviewed tough by a chinese.

Maybe, that Indian guy was trying too hard to prove that he was not favouring you just because you're an Indian as well!
Seriuously though, I have interviewed so many people and I have been interviewed so many times; but I have never found anyone who can answer *ALL* the question that we have asked. Also, I have never been able to answer all questions correcty in my interviews. Believe me, it doesn't work that way. It is not much about what you already know, it is much more about what you can learn, how you can solve the problems.
When I interview a candidate, I give more importance to the way a person thinks when faced with an unknown problem, and his problem solving ability.
- Manish

[Arjun Shastry]

Yes, it should be that way, but interviewers ask only those questions which they know.Once I gave the interview in one middle size company.Interviewer asked me about use of Fibonacci series in Civil Engg. application .I was stunned.Then he asked series of questions and finally when interview was about to over he asked me whether he wants to know anything about company.I asked about that question.He said he is also not sure but it is used somewhere in architecture Real.

[Manish Hatwalne]

I think we all have our share of bad interviews!
But I find it obvious that the interviewer will only ask the questions he knows. I mean if I don't know a thing about Jini or Struts, how can I ask a question on it. Usually, when HRs/managers schedule an interview, they *should* assign this task to developers with related skillset. Seems fair enough!
Am I misinterpreting sth?
- Manish

[SJ Adnams]

You need to find the following out:
1) How clever is he?
2) What does he know?
3) What does he need to learn, will he do it?
4) Can he communicate?
You should be able to figure out 1) from his CV. 2) from general technical questions. 3) from his CV (self development). 4) his ideas as well as eloquence.
Interviewing is not rocket science, if you make it more complicated than it needs to be you'll hire the wrong guy.

So if you make a joke about hiring a good looking guy/girl, remember that it can and will be used against you in court.

My comments apply to male candidates only

[Praveen Pranum]

If I interview the interviewer I am damn sure I can ask damn tough questions that the interviewer himself wont be able to answer.
Just because yo are given a chance to interview you are not the king of the world.
What I personally think is there should be a balance in skillsets.. like technically and interpersonal skills. 5 out of 10 lot of developers do not have good interpersonal skillsets.
I think you should value both technology and quality in a person.
If you just look for technology you will miss a good quality person in your team.
There should be a balance.
Just my thoughts.
Praveen

[Manish Hatwalne]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
If I interview the interviewer I am damn sure I can ask damn tough questions that the interviewer himself wont be able to answer.
Just because yo are given a chance to interview you are not the king of the world.
What I personally think is there should be a balance in skillsets.. like technically and interpersonal skills. 5 out of 10 lot of developers do not have good interpersonal skillsets.
I think you should value both technology and quality in a person.
If you just look for technology you will miss a good quality person in your team.
There should be a balance.
Just my thoughts.
Praveen

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I hope my post did not imply that interviewer can ask anything. I was only trying to say that 100% correct answers are not expected.
And you are right, anyone can ask a tough question that another person (interviewer or the candidate) cannot answer! But that's a bad interviewer anyway...
I think, Simon Lee listed it very well!
- Manish

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
But I find it obvious that the interviewer will only ask the questions he knows.

I don't. I know next to nothing about struts and only the basics of Jini. But I do know Java and CS. A good question I might choose to ask someone with experience in those areas is "explain to me the advantages of those technologies?" Or basing off of something he said, I might ask "why does Jini do X and not Y?" I don't know the answer. What I do get is the candidates ability to clearly explain some technical issue. I am not judging the canddiates knowldge here (altough I could go double check his/her answers), but rather communication skills.
--Mark

[Praveen Pranum]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

I don't. I know next to nothing about struts and only the basics of Jini. But I do know Java and CS. A good question I might choose to ask someone with experience in those areas is "explain to me the advantages of those technologies?" Or basing off of something he said, I might ask "why does Jini do X and not Y?" I don't know the answer. What I do get is the candidates ability to clearly explain some technical issue. I am not judging the canddiates knowldge here (altough I could go double check his/her answers), but rather communication skills.
--Mark

But mark remember that not every one is like you. I am not sure what positon you hold, but Being in the consulting I know how the lot of interviewers are. They want each and every detail about a technology these days. Some interviewers like H-1 B guys do not even give credit if you are a good communicator. I know a hiring managers will consider your communication skills. But if the interviewer is a developer himself, He will try to get into every detail of the technology as possible. Hiring managers usually delegate the interview process to the tech guys.. Some of the tech guys are introverts and egoists some times. Although some of them are really good folks some times. But not in all cases.
I am saying being Good: meaning giving value if you are really worth for the position.
[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]

[Praveen Pranum]

I think a H-1 B guy will hire only another H-1 B guy or any other indian guy if he has a vested interest in the position. If he directly comes to the US and starts working on a high tech job he wont even consider education like a masters in CS as a valuable degree. I know this because I work with these guys on a day to day basis.
As he does not belong to any alumni, if he sees another indian guy as an interviewee who has a masters degree. he would not value him as H-1 B guy does not have a masters degree himself. And he thinks a masters degree in CS is worth less.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
But mark remember that not every one is like you.

That's moot, at least wrt my comments to which you were quoting in the reply (and so I'm assuming that's what you were refering to in your comment above). The statement put forth was

Originally posted by Manish Hatwalne:
But I find it obvious that the interviewer will only ask the questions he knows.

I replied that I see a reason why this statement is false. No it is possible that I'm on some extreme end of the spectrum (and I suppose on cetain scales I am :-), but I don't think I am here. So if you accept that there exist some people (even if only a small minority) who ask questions for the reason I gave, then you disagree with Manish's assumption, because you accept that there are interviewers, like myself, who ask questions to which we do not know the answer.
I certainly don't disagree that many people out there only look for technical knowledge. They are free to hire as they choose (within the law, of course).
NB: OK, technically, it all depends on what you consider the true question to be. We (or maybe just I) implicitly assumed it to be in the technology domain. You could argue that the question I am really asking is, "How are your communication skills?" and that its simply embedded in those words which have a different prima facie interpretation.
--Mark

[San Su]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
I think a H-1 B guy will hire only another H-1 B guy or any other indian guy if he has a vested interest in the position. If he directly comes to the US and starts working on a high tech job he wont even consider education like a masters in CS as a valuable degree. I know this because I work with these guys on a day to day basis.
As he does not belong to any alumni, if he sees another indian guy as an interviewee who has a masters degree. he would not value him as H-1 B guy does not have a masters degree himself. And he thinks a masters degree in CS is worth less.

Think before you type.. This kind of generalization won't take you anywhere. First, you said, if Indian interview another Indian, the interview is going to be tough. Then you come and claim that H1B (Indians) will hire another H1B or Indian. What the heck you are trying to say??? Make up your mind... :roll: Ok you have a Master degree... So what? What do you expect from others? Should you be treated like a King??? Or the interview questions should be very easy since you have a "Master" degree??? You just put "think" all over the place.. I don't know what the heck you "think"... You must have a special skill.. Do you know what I "think" now???

[Praveen Pranum]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

What the heck you are trying to say??? Do you know what I "think" now???

This specimen is one example of a H-1 B . He fires at people for no reason and Besides he can never be a collaborator. And shouts for no reason and he lacks patience.

[Praveen Pranum]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

That's moot, at least wrt my comments to which you were quoting in the reply
--Mark

Mark I was just saying that ever interviewer is unique. When I said "not every one is like you"
I meant other inteviewers would consider technical skills more than communication in different life cycles of a software project.
Your replies were very good and professional on this topic of the original posting. I have no comments on them. I was just saying that
interviewers evaluate candidates with different aspects at the back of their mind while they interview the candidates.
Thankyou
Prav

[San Su]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:


This specimen is one example of a H-1 B . He fires at people for no reason and Besides he can never be a collaborator. And shouts for no reason and he lacks patience.

This specimen is one of the confused sub species. Yes I don't have patience to have a polite discussion with idiots like you.. never be a Collaborator?? what the heck is that??? Yea.. I get it.. I should Collaborate with you to give you a job without any question.. Well sorry.. I am not a collaborator.. ..

[Praveen Pranum]

Well Mr.Shankar
I have no grudge on you. Neither will i call you an idiot, like you have retaliated on me nor I will retaliate on you. But you are a product of your own self. So be it.

[Praveen Pranum]

Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

This specimen is one of the confused sub species. Yes I don't have patience to have a polite discussion with idiots like you.. never be a Collaborator?? what the heck is that??? Yea.. I get it.. I should Collaborate with you to give you a job without any question.. Well sorry.. I am not a collaborator.. ..

And another thing mister. I have not been unemployed for years like some of H1 Bs. I had my job all the time during that down economy ..And neither will not a job for long time as market aint that bad for me. So if I hire a H-1 B guy I will make sure he is professional. If he is not I wont hire him. If he is poor at communication I will not hire him. If he is an introvert I wont hire him.
[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]

[Praveen Pranum]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:


And another thing mister. I have not been unemployed for years like some of H1 Bs. I had my job all the time during that down economy. That explains my skillset. In this economy only the fittest will survive. And neither I will be not having a job for long time as market aint that bad for me. So if I hire a H-1 B guy I will make sure he is professional. If he is not I wont hire him. If he is poor at communication I will not hire him. If he is an introvert I wont hire him.
[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]

[San Su]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:


And another thing mister. I have not been unemployed for years like some of H1 Bs. I had my job all the time during that down economy ..And neither will not a job for long time as market aint that bad for me. So if I hire a H-1 B guy I will make sure he is professional. If he is not I wont hire him. If he is poor at communication I will not hire him. If he is an introvert I wont hire him.
[ May 21, 2003: Message edited by: Praveen Prav ]

It is upto you whom you hire. The same thing can be said to the people who rejected you. No need to blame all the H1B guys for your personal bad experience with some one or just because you didn't get the job.
I have a question for you. It is upto you to answer it.. You said you are an Indian. How did you end up in US? You became an American citizen right away and started your carrier? Just curious.. nothing else..

[San Su]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:

I have not been unemployed for years like some of H1 Bs.

:roll: Where do you get all your "facts"? :roll:

[Praveen Pranum]

I think I am done posting here.
prav

[San Su]

Originally posted by Praveen Prav:
I think I am done posting here.
prav

Good for you..

[Mark Herschberg]

I'd like to remind everyone to try to keep some professionalism in your posts. Consider doing so because not only can your posts here be used against you in court, but also in an interview. If you google search me, you'll quickly find my posts here. I always try to think about how a potential employer might view my posts.
--Mark

[Chris Mathews]

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I'd like to remind everyone to try to keep some professionalism in your posts. Consider doing so because not only can your posts here be used against you in court, but also in an interview. If you google search me, you'll quickly find my posts here. I always try to think about how a potential employer might view my posts.
--Mark

Excellent point. Personally, I always make it a habit to google a person before I interview them...

[Jamie Robertson]

Originally posted by Chris Mathews:

Excellent point. Personally, I always make it a habit to google a person before I interview them...

Just wondering, < hijack > if you ever found something out on a google search which deemed this person unhireable? What if the guys name just happened to be Michael Jackson or some other co-incidental name? What happens if you get hits on some other guy with the same name?? I know that there is a professional photographer named Jamie Robertson out there and another that draws shady comics. Seems like this would lead to more misinformation than anything. < /hijack >
Jamie

[Jamie Robertson]

actually, bizarro Jamie looks quite good on paper:
Jamie Robertson #3
Jamie

[SJ Adnams]

According to google there is only 1 Mark Herschberg & it's amazing what you can find out.

professionally trained bartender

[Mark Herschberg]

What can I say, I'm unique. :- )
Obviously a google search on Jon Smith won't be fruitful. But given a resume, you can search on more then use a name. In addition to my name, from your resume you can find out that I am active with Java (common), cryptography (not so common), JavaRanch (getting more common daily :-), and ballroom dancing (uncommon). That should be enough to narrow it down, even on a more common name.
In general, I give people the benefit of doubt, but if someone lists JavaRanch on the resume, and I find his or her name on here, I'd probably assume its this person.
--Mark
PS That MIT web page is resume is about 4-7 years old. :-p