New Forum: "USA Jobs Discussion"?

[Keith Thompson]

Question for Bartenders -

Can we get a new forum "USA Jobs Discussion" for people who work in the USA?

And no, I am not being racist or evil or whatever.

It makes sense to have a seperate and new forum for workers in the USA.
The working environment, the labor laws, the economy, the workplace environment, the corporate environment, the tax laws and the educational systems are so dramatically different from the USA vs India vs China that to lump them all into one pot doesn't serve any purpose.

Keith

[Svend Rost]

Or perhabs EU (incl. GB)...

/Svend

[Keith Thompson]

K Riaz & Svend Rost - make fun of it if you want.

I have been a software developer since 1989, and I can tell you when it comes to the topic of "Jobs Discission" the personal experiences I have had in the past and the personal experiences I will have in the future are so dramatically different than the experiences of someone in India & China - that to assume the topic of "Jobs Discission" means to be inclusive of everyone one planet earth, it just doesn't make any sense. It becomes jibberish.

Of course, java is the same in India & China & the USA. Of course, the technology is EXACTLY the same.

However a forum for "Jobs Discission" is as different as night and day.

Some of the things I do to promote myself and my IT career here in the USA workplace, would put me in prison in China.

Some of the cultural things that a developer in India would do to promote themselves, make themselves more employable in the Indian workplace are useful and rational and effective in India, however it could become grounds for civil suits and fines levied against corporations here in the USA.

This does not mean people in one country are better than another. It means the cultural, economic, and legal environment are profoundly different when on the topic of "Jobs Discussion".

Keith

[Svend Rost]

Hi Keith,

I did not mean to make fun you, or your idea - im sorry you
understood it that way. I wrote (EU, incl. UK) because I thought it
might make more sence to have a european forum, rather than one
forum for each of the 25 member countries.


/Svend Rost

[Mark Herschberg]

Suggestions for changes to JavaRanch should be posted in the JavaRanch forum. I'm moving this discussion there.

--Mark

[Gregg Bolinger]

I understand the need for seperation however, making forums for every nation,culture,country,etc could get out of hand. A better alternative, IMHO, is to make the subject of your topic more focused. For example,

[U.S.]Labor Laws or [India]Labor Laws

for a subject is a good way to say "Hey, this topic has to do with labor laws specific to [insert country here]". If you begin to get non-[insert country here] specific responses, simply make that comment or let a bartender/sheriff know and we can get the conversation back on track.

[Keith Thompson]

Greg,

I disagree. It makes sense for JavaRanch to have a "Servlets" or "JSP" forum for everybody on planet earth. Because servlets & jsp work the same all over the planet.

But the difference between jobs in the US & India & China is so dramatic that they can't even hardly be compared. Having a "Jobs Discussion" for jobs on planet earth doesn't seem logical.

Greg - If I only want my peers (software developers who are citizens of the USA) to respond to my post - how exactly would I indicate that in the post title?

Keith

[Gregg Bolinger]

Unfortunately Keith, we don't get to pick and choose who can respond in the public forums. And that is not what I meant. I meant that you can direct the thread's discussion to be relivant to a specific local. If you are asking about US specific information, and someone starts giving you information relavent to a different country, you/I/we can do something about that. But saying "Please only reply if you work in Russia" kind of goes against what a discussion board is. And this wouldn't stop just by making locale specific forums, IMO. I am not the deciding factor though. Let's see what others have to say and we can go from there.

[Mark Herschberg]

Originally posted by Keith Thompson:

But the difference between jobs in the US & India & China is so dramatic that they can't even hardly be compared. Having a "Jobs Discussion" for jobs on planet earth doesn't seem logical.

I disagree. Labor laws, resumes, and the job market do differ. How to deal with peers, managers, career paths, etc tend to be more similar than different. Even questions about resumes, and job markets can apply across geographic regions.

The second problem is the proliferation of markets. US, India, England, France, China, Japan, South Africa, etc. We have people from many countries. At what point do we deem the need for a new one? Maybe the Bay Area should get its own forum.

Where do you post if you're in one country and thinking of looking abroad for jobs?

Seriously, I agree that it can be frustrating when people ask for information about, say, labor laws, since it does vary. The answer, as Greg pointed out is to deifne the locale in the subject or first posting.

--Mark

[Keith Thompson]

Mark,

I disagree with you also. You say that "... How to deal with peers, managers, career paths, etc tend to be more similar than different."

That is my point. For those topics, the difference is so dramatic you might as well be on different planets!

Peers:
Again, the relationship with peers is dramatically different. The culture in India is different from Chicago. In the USA there are things not permitted in the workplace. In Chicago, when men say stuff(loudly so that a few hundred people can hear it) like "Our female VP really has great breasts - that is how she got her job" and "That business analyst on the 2nd floor hasn't had any sex lately, that is why she is such a bitch" - they might actually get canned (If they work in a corporate environment and somebody has the guts to report them.)

In India - ?
In China - ?

Deeling with managers:
The things a manager in Chicago might actually like & encourage, gets you in prison in China. In the USA you could put "volunteer Leader of Planned Parenthood Charity Drive" or "President of the local chapter of Amnesty International" or something similar to show some leadership ability.

In India - ?
In China - ?


Career Paths:
For China & India, there are whole demographic sections of socity that have NO career path in IT. Women? Handicapped people?

Finance in IT:
In China, if you are responsible for an IT budget, and money disappears they shoot you(no - this is not an exageration). in the USA you might get a trial(and probably India too).

If you don't want a "USA Discussion Forum" that is fine. But I just wanted to make note of my opinion regarding a "planet earth" jobs discission.

Keith

P.S. And I almost forgot about interview questions! There are whole sections of interview questions that are ILLEGAL in the USA, but are customary in India. For example, a HR person in Chicago would never ask these questions - >
How old are you?
How many children do you have?
[ November 26, 2005: Message edited by: Keith Thompson ]

[Mark Herschberg]

Yes, there are certainly difference, but my experience have been that there are far more similarities than differences.

--Mark

[Andrew Monkhouse]

Hi Keith,

In my opinion, your arguments make me think that keeping one forum is better than separating them. Yes, there are differences, but being able to discuss those differences is important - if you separate the cultures it will be much harder for meaningful discussion between different cultures. And, if only one particular culture participates in one particular forum then myths about other cultures will continue to be upheld.

Peers:
Again, the relationship with peers is dramatically different. The culture in India is different from Chicago. In the USA there are things not permitted in the workplace. In Chicago, when men say stuff(loudly so that a few hundred people can hear it) like "Our female VP really has great breasts - that is how she got her job" and "That business analyst on the 2nd floor hasn't had any sex lately, that is why she is such a bitch" - they might actually get canned (If they work in a corporate environment and somebody has the guts to report them.)

In India - ?
In China - ?

Perfect example - if we have a Chinese only forum, and somebody posts a message in it asking how they could handle such conversations - you would never see the post, let alone be able to respond to it.

Practically speaking to that example - there are a lot of American / English / European ... companies in China. And while they obey all the local laws in China, they also ensure that the laws and standards of every country they have offices in are also adheared to (they have to, otherwise somebody could make a comment in country 'x' that results in a law suit in country 'y'). So, in such a case, a person can get canned (and I did fire somebody for that in China) for making such comments. Even for those companies who are not international - they still have to work with international companies, and many of them know that at some point in their careers they may be employed by an international company, so it can easily be pointed out that they need to follow international standards.

Deeling with managers:
The things a manager in Chicago might actually like & encourage, gets you in prison in China. In the USA you could put "volunteer Leader of Planned Parenthood Charity Drive" or "President of the local chapter of Amnesty International" or something similar to show some leadership ability.

In India - ?
In China - ?

Sure, the specific examples you give might be illegal in various countries, but the principles are the same. If a person from one country asked about what sorts of things they can do to get recognition from a manager, then some of those things you mentioned might get offered as examples of what might work in America. But going from that, the original poster can then relate it back to their own environment - sure, being a member of Amnesty International might not be a good career move in some countries, but is there some approved local charity that they could join? Or could they organise a local computer club? Or could they organise a bowling club?

Again - if we have a country 'x' only forum then we have the risk that these suggestions may not be seen by those who can offer advice. The more forums we have, the harder it would be to get good advice - would a person from China post in only the China forum, or also in the American forum, and also the EU forum .... (spam )

Career Paths:
For China & India, there are whole demographic sections of socity that have NO career path in IT. Women? Handicapped people?

Really? I think that statement is a bit strong - I certainly noticed a few women in IT in China. Certainly not even 10% of the IT demographic, but they are there. I would be surprised if India does not also have women in IT. The same would go for handicapped people in both countries.

If the Chinese and Indian people don't visit the American forum, then this myth might continue. And even if there were some demographic that was being blocked from IT in a given country, wouldnt it be better for people from that deomgraphic to have a generic forum that they can post in and get support?

Finance in IT:
In China, if you are responsible for an IT budget, and money disappears they shoot you(no - this is not an exageration). in the USA you might get a trial(and probably India too).

Hmmm, having lived in China for a while, I can honestly say that I have never heard of anyone being shot for having money disappear.

But I dont see how that fits into the separate forum theory - if there was something illegal going on that could result in a person getting shot, would they really post about it in a China only forum? Would they even post about it in a generic forum?

If you don't want a "USA Discussion Forum" that is fine. But I just wanted to make note of my opinion regarding a "planet earth" jobs discission.

It is always good to hear others opinions. Please dont take the opposing views as an attack - they are just opposing views.

P.S. And I almost forgot about interview questions! There are whole sections of interview questions that are ILLEGAL in the USA, but are customary in India. For example, a HR person in Chicago would never ask these questions - >
How old are you?
How many children do you have?

Agreed - but in some of these cases, the laws making these questions illegal are (relatively) new. There are probably still forum members who remember answering these questions when they first started applying for jobs. If somebody from China asked how to handle such a question then they could benefit from those who have answered it in the past, along with explanations about why the questions are illegal in America. Imagine if a HR person from China was asking about opinions regarding the "how old are you" question - if they only ask it in the China forum then they wont even see the reasons against it.

Regards, Andrew

[Keith Thompson]

Andrew -

I have your book in my Amazon shopping cart! I do plan to buy your book - so I hope it gets published as scheduled. I want to get closure on my developer cert exam. It is cool to see your name here!

As for the "USA Jobs Discussion" here is my take on it:
For my peers(software developers who are USA citizens who work in the USA) I would like to hear what they have to say & participate in such a forum. This would be useful to me.

For people who are not my peers (people in India, Pakistan, China ) - I have no interest in communicating with them about "jobs discussion' or for that matter do I have any interest in participating in any sort of "meaningful discussion between different cultures". This is JavaRanch.com and the topic is "jobs discussion". Not LovingOtherCultures.com and wanting to "get in touch with my inner self and becoming more welcoming & loving to other cultures".

Their agenda is to find work and make more money. I can certainly understand that, as my agenda is the same. Why should I be expected to, or even want to, live to a higher and more noble standard of participating in a "generic forum that they(Indians & Chinese) can post in and get support?"

There is a federal funded workplace study currently underway from the National Science Foundation documenting the potential reasons why women are leaving the Information Technology field in the USA. (There has been a dramatic decline in the past several years.) One of the subject topics is along the lines of "hostile working environment potentially caused by additional men from other cultures who have entered the American IT workplace".

And I don't perceive other views as attacks. My writing style happens to be cryptic(and I admit sarcastic and bitter). Other people can think whatever they want & the owners of JavaRanch have a first amendment right to say/print whatever they want.

I have never lived in China, but my friend has. She told me she seen train robbers get shot without a trial(in a rural area). This is an example of different cultures, has nothing really to do with "jobs discussion".

Keith

and yes - I have worked abroad for international companies. I can still remember going home every single day and washing the smell of cigarette smoke off myself & my clothes. Even the papers in my briefcase smelled like cigarette smoke. Here in the USA we stopped that nasty workplace issue more than 20 years ago.

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Keith Thompson:

Their agenda is to find work and make more money. I can certainly understand that, as my agenda is the same. Why should I be expected to, or even want to, live to a higher and more noble standard of participating in a "generic forum that they(Indians & Chinese) can post in and get support?"

JavaRanch's agenda - the way *I* understand it - is to build a friendly community for Java developers. And frankly, I don't see how splitting the Job Discussions forum helps with that.

In fact, I'd wager that putting an indicator into the subject line would even be more effective: you might well get helpful responses from indian ranchers who by some coincidence know something about the US job market, too...

[griffith jones]

I'm with Keith, here. Much of the discussion in the jobs forum is focused on jobs in India: how to get ahead in India, which companies are hiring in Bangalore, Indian salaries, etc. It goes right past me.

I'd find a USA jobs forum useful. A NAFTA jobs forum would do the trick, too.

Griff Jones (San Ramon, CA)

[Sonny Gill]

I wonder when someone is going to ask the usual question that is used to greet a request for a new forum...
Are there enough posts on U.S. jobs discussion to warrant a separate forum?

But I can see the difficulty Keith is facing. There are so many posts in Jobs Discussion about salaries and companies in, say Bangalore, that the posts about other countries/places can just get lost in the noise.

Since so many of the posts there are about jobs in India, and most of those are probably of interest only to people working in India, how about having a separate forum for Jobs in India instead?
[ November 27, 2005: Message edited by: Sonny Gill ]

[Gregg Bolinger]

I'd be willing to bet that the reason there are more threads in Job Discussions about Indian jobs is because there are more Indian workers posting threads there.

I find it interesting that since this threads birth, there isn't a single thread in Job Discussions that does what anyone here suggested. In fact, neither Keith nor griffith has started a thread in that forum since this thread was started.

At this point in time, unless the Trail Boss overrides us, I don't think we are creating any new forums for Job Discussions. Everyone is free to continue talking about it. That is what this Javaranch forum is for. But in the meantime, why don't you go try posting some threads using the suggestions given and see what happens. If we're wrong, and our suggestions don't work, you'll never know unless you try.

Why should I be expected to, or even want to, live to a higher and more noble standard of participating in a "generic forum that they(Indians & Chinese) can post in and get support?"

We don't expect anything from our members except to "Be Nice". Frankly Keith, your attitude towards other cultures raises my eyebrow. I find your use of pronouns a bit disturbing. Ease up man, or find another community. With only 22 posts, you haven't wasted too much time here.

[Mark Spritzler]

My 2 cents.

I just think there isn't enough traffic to Jobs Discussion to warrant more forums.

Mark

[Michael Ernest]

I'm with Mark. Every once in a while we fan out forums thinking if we build it, they will come. It rarely works that way. I too do not think the cultural differences are great.

We don't even have a Windows forum, for that matter, and Lord knows how many of you heathens use that platform. You want to talk cultural differences, there's a place to start...

[Keith Thompson]

Greg,

I posted question just the other day. Nobody repsonded. That is because the forum is a defacto "Indian Job Discussion".

Yes - I will find a different community. I have no interest in "being nice" to foreign IT workers. And the moral high ground does not belong to those people who "are nice" about this issue. I know people who lost their homes,lost their marriages, lost their careers and their life savings due to jobs sent to India. Where is your "be nice" effort for the people who have been driven into the ground by offshoring?

[Gregg Bolinger]

Originally posted by Keith Thompson:
Greg,

I posted question just the other day. Nobody repsonded. That is because the forum is a defacto "Indian Job Discussion".

Yes - I will find a different community. I have no interest in "being nice" to foreign IT workers. And the moral high ground does not belong to those people who "are nice" about this issue. I know people who lost their homes,lost their marriages, lost their careers and their life savings due to jobs sent to India. Where is your "be nice" effort for the people who have been driven into the ground by offshoring?

I'm not clear on how our Job Discussion forum has anything to do with the effects of offshoring. Good luck Keith. I hope you find a community more fitting.

[Ilja Preuss]

Originally posted by Keith Thompson:
Nobody repsonded. That is because the forum is a defacto "Indian Job Discussion".

Blaming someone else is always easy, but it seldom will lead to improvement, in my experience.

Yes - I will find a different community. I have no interest in "being nice" to foreign IT workers.

Then JavaRanch definitely is the wrong place for you. Good luck in finding a better fit.

[Eric Lemaitre]

Hi Keith !

I posted question just the other day. Nobody repsonded. That is because the forum is a defacto "Indian Job Discussion".

You are right, but this is purely casual, no one's fault.
Indians are simply extremely numerous today in IT field in US, for example more than 35% of all H1B owners in IT are Indians, and as they are very active on forums like this one it looks like they seem more numerous than they really are.
This is simply a social fact, but many non Indians read these forums too, and many others participate. I hope this is no pejorative remark, even if one nationality or ethnicity is more visible than others, all nations interfere here. Personnally I am French, for example, and participate rather much in US immigration related matters, so these forums are far from being pure Indian topics despite they may look like it.

Yes - I will find a different community. I have no interest in "being nice" to foreign IT workers. And the moral high ground does not belong to those people who "are nice" about this issue. I know people who lost their homes,lost their marriages, lost their careers and their life savings due to jobs sent to India. Where is your "be nice" effort for the people who have been driven into the ground by offshoring?

One of our very famous generals, I believe Henri de Turenne, said kind of "if all wrong things were on the same side, wars would end very quickly". You are blaming the system for some of its cons while you appreciate it for some of its pros, but don't forget you are a part of it, so if things go wrong it is partly (even for a tiny part only) your fault too, as everyone of us.

You are blaming industrials for outsourcing so as to boost profits for companies and their shareholders, but meanwhile you carry on buying only at cheapest, forcing anyway the same industrials to outsource further for cheaper to compensate profits loss, perhaps you are even a shareholder yourself. You are blaming politicians for letting US companies outsource too much even against US citizens interest, but meanwhile you carry on voting for them.

So I hope before blaming the present system you will consider you are a part of it. Blaming foreigners is anyway a foolish way to react for 2 reasons : the aliens are not responsible for taking the outsourced jobs because they were brought to them, and it prevents you to consider alternative ways to fight back so as to keep your job by evoluting or finding a new one if it has become obsolete.

No Indian ever stole any US job, but many US companies offered them jobs instead of US citizens because they were much cheaper, a pure performance for price ratio. If someone has to be blamed from this point of view, it must be US companies, and even this should be an error for economics matters. Blaming the Indians only for outsourcing is looking for a scapegoat.

You perfectly know that pure programmers in IT field are doomed (except for beginners in business), for this is too little added value, programmers must evolve upwards towards software architects and software urbanists. This is no one's fault and will happen with or without outsourcing involved. Don't forget to evaluate yourself with your strengths ands weaknesses before looking down on others.

You could consider alternative ways to fight back the "allways go cheapest" trend which is going much too far : one of most foul companies on US soil for social matters is Wal Mart, with undecent wages and extreme social abuses such as mass hiring of illegals and firing people who try to buid a trade union. At Inglewood, some US citizens at last chose to stop them by denying them the right to settle in their city. Gather with other honest US fellows, decide to pay a decent price for what you pay instead of "always cheapest", pay decent wages if you are an employer, don't vote whatever happens for politicians who are not fair, boycott the companies which are not fair. Then you will be much better armed to deal with present world issues.

Best regards.

[Sonny Gill]

Originally posted by Keith Thompson:

I know people who lost their homes,lost their marriages, lost their careers and their life savings due to jobs sent to India. Where is your "be nice" effort for the people who have been driven into the ground by offshoring?

And how on earth can you blame Indians (or Chinese or Ukrainians or whoever) for that? How about greedy corporations, and corrupt politicians?

And are you going to tell me next that you only buy, wear and consume products made in America because otherwise you will be a part of someone's reason for losing their job, marriages, career and life savings!!

(Gah!! sorry guys....a bit off topic)

[Jim Yingst]

Ahem. Let's not argue that specific point here, shall we? Effects of outsourcing are a valid topic for the Jobs Discussion forum itself. Not here. Of course, it's also a sensitive topic, so be careful.
[ November 28, 2005: Message edited by: Jim Yingst ]

[Michael Ernest]

I can well imagine subsequent browsers of this topic feeling a warm rush of blood to the face after reading Keith's parting shot. Think I'll close it here but leave those unfortunate words as an example of what we don't need on Javaranch.