Win a copy of Testing JavaScript Applications this week in the HTML Pages with CSS and JavaScript forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
programming forums Java Mobile Certification Databases Caching Books Engineering Micro Controllers OS Languages Paradigms IDEs Build Tools Frameworks Application Servers Open Source This Site Careers Other all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
Marshals:
  • Campbell Ritchie
  • Bear Bibeault
  • Ron McLeod
  • Jeanne Boyarsky
  • Paul Clapham
Sheriffs:
  • Tim Cooke
  • Liutauras Vilda
  • Junilu Lacar
Saloon Keepers:
  • Tim Moores
  • Stephan van Hulst
  • Tim Holloway
  • fred rosenberger
  • salvin francis
Bartenders:
  • Piet Souris
  • Frits Walraven
  • Carey Brown

Will RAD Retire All Java Programmers/Developers?

 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1309
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I just watched the IBM's demonstration of their new product Rapid Application Developer (RAD). RAD can generate Java code based on J2EE pattern, UML design, and user requirements. Programmers without Java background can quickly develop a J2EE application using RAD.
Will RAD retire all Java programmers/developers? If RAD changes the landscape of the IT programming field, there is no point for us to talk about H1B/L1, offshore outsourcing anymore.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2166
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
to make prediction is very dificult, especially if its about future.
 
Saloon Keeper
Posts: 22284
151
Android Eclipse IDE Tomcat Server Redhat Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by JiaPei Jen:

Will RAD retire all Java programmers/developers? If RAD changes the landscape of the IT programming field, there is no point for us to talk about H1B/L1, offshore outsourcing anymore.


No. RAD is just one of the "silver bullets" that the industry has tried over the years to reduce the task of programming to something done in zero time by unskilled labor. Which in itself is absurd, since if programs could be produced by unskilled labor, the production itself could be automated!
RAD, XP, JIT, outsourcing, offshoring and all the other ways by which companies try to get a competitive edge. Each has a time and a place where it should be embraced, and a time and place when it should not. A lot of what makes companies successful (or not) is knowing when to use a lever and when not to.
I not only use use RAD tools, I create them. However there's always some case where you need to do something that the tool can't handle, or you need a level of control that's beyond the subtleties of the tool. Otherwise we'd all be using Visual Basic or a 4GL.
You can often hack out a crude prototype using RAD - and in fact, I often do. However a reliable, secure, performant and polished system of any complexity usually requires going far beyond just the RAD part.
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 715
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi JiaPei,
If a programmer don't understand the Java syntax, how could he or she interpret the code in case of reversal engineering needed? It doesn't matter how carefull your design according to user specs, user always have the capability to change the specs after the designing phase. I usually see specs change during the product prototype demo.
Regards,
MCao
 
JiaPei Jen
Ranch Hand
Posts: 1309
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Matt, try to get a rough idea about RAD before you post your message. Do not assume people are dumb.
 
Matt Cao
Ranch Hand
Posts: 715
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi JiaPei,
No, the last thing I assume people are dumb. People are sneaky more like it. Yes, you are right to say I should see the demo. I didn't missing out that day at work. I only have a second hand knowledge about it because the management didn't impressed with it. Sorry, if I offended you.
Regards,
MCao
[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Matt Cao ]
 
Author
Posts: 6049
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One of the key concepts in programming is the idea of an abstraction layer. I write software which ultimately runs on a chip. I have only a vague notion of how the chip works. I don't need to understand it better, because I only need to understand the layer on which I write (better programmers do have deeper understandings of the underlying layers).
Decades ago a programmer needed a PhD and understood every vaccuum tube used in the computer. Over the years we abstracted away hardware, then low level services into the OS, the higher services, etc. Do you know how file IO really works, or do you just say new File("MyFileName") and know that the file gets created. I will never write raw IO code, but I will use it. Tomorrow's programmers will be saved many of the hoops we need to jump through.
So long as computers need to be given custom instructions, there will be programmers. What they program and how will change. Given that people are always pushing the technology envelope, they will need people like us with advanced technology skills to make it work.
--Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 327
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:

Do you know how file IO really works, or do you just say new File("MyFileName") and know that the file gets created. I will never write raw IO code, but I will use it. Tomorrow's programmers will be saved many of the hoops we need to jump through.
--Mark


I agree that tomorrow's programmers will be saved the hoops, but doesn't that make them less marketable?
I am a new grad. I would love to know more about how things work such as IO. But since I didn't get this type of training in my undergrad degree, at least from my school, I feel as though I'm missing big pieces of the overall puzzle in order to be marketable against those who do know things work such as IO.
It almost seems as though the only 'programmers' that will survive in this job market are those that have been around for the last 10-20 years to see how things started and how they have changed. And you can only live so long. I guess I'm trying to compare "users of a language" to "architects of a language". Users of a language will always have to relearn the same stuff for a different language, while architects of a language can simply apply new behaviours.
Am I way off base?
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2823
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Weren't SAP and other enterprise applications supposed to replace programmers as well. Yet every company that implements is so different that they have to customize. (That is how we have always done it.)
 
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper
Posts: 22284
151
Android Eclipse IDE Tomcat Server Redhat Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by leo donahue:

It almost seems as though the only 'programmers' that will survive in this job market are those that have been around for the last 10-20 years to see how things started and how they have changed.


I wish. The "sweet spot" is 5 years experience. If you have less, they don't want you because you haven't got experience (the infamous Catch-22) and if you have over 8-10, you cost too much because you expect to be paid for that experience.
Years ago, I observed that in computers, when you gain something you lose something. If you have highly-leveraged tools such as Java to take cae of all your needs for data collections, GUI, I/O, etc., you lose the efficiency and flexibility of that you'd have when you do everything yourself. However you're going to be able to produce a product much faster and it will probably be more reliable, since the number of bugs in software is pretty much linear with the number of lines of code.
The best platforms allow you to work at different layers and move between them as needs require. Java's JNI is an example of such flexibility. Or, as Alan Kay says "Simple things should be simple and complex things should be possible".
The thing to remember when you see a whiz-bang demo of some fancy productivity aid is that all demos are rigged to show the strengths of their products. The real world is much messier and a lot of products with whiz-bang demos fail to survive.
 
Mark Herschberg
Author
Posts: 6049
2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by leo donahue:

I agree that tomorrow's programmers will be saved the hoops, but doesn't that make them less marketable?
...
It almost seems as though the only 'programmers' that will survive in this job market are those that have been around for the last 10-20 years to see how things started and how they have changed.



LOL! (sorry, I couldn't help it)
Talk to some FORTRAN, COBOL, or mainframe programmers and ask them how marketable they feel. We know less about the underlying layers the our predecessors 10 years ago, and we got jobs. Every generation faces the same issues.
Besdies, the critical skills are those which will not be easily dated. Good developers often more then simply knowledge of some flavor-of-the-month technology.
--Mark
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 503
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
All:
- Let's take a look at a current real-world application.
- Where I work out, we wrote a generic Java/JSP website. It has 5 pages. We take in a credit application, make a decision, spit that decision back to you. If you are approved, you can print a contract on your printer, sign it and take it to your local branch office and get your check.
- Sounds like a simple e-commerce application.
- Well, we put 6 months into that application. Why? We need to do data-validation on 3 levels. On the client (javascript), on the web-server (java), and on the backend (cobol).
- We use security certificates.
- We run in 50 states. Every state has different rules. Thus different contract requirements. We also offer the option of additional insurance based on the state requirements.
- Again, all of this has to be coded/verified on the javascript, java and cobol levels.
---------
- My point is. What looks like a simple generic e-commerce application on the surface, in reality is a major corporate undertaking.
- And that's where you find opportunity in this industry as a programmer.
---------
- My proposal to the company is to take and convert this application over to hand-held Palm devices. Will it make business-sense? Who knows? But it corporate says yes, then I've got a project to work on for another 6-12 months. And now I have job security.
- And for a 1 or 2 person project (at least for the Java / JavaScript side), it's too small to ship overseas.
-------
John Coxey
(jpcoxey@yahoo.com)
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 2596
Android Firefox Browser Ubuntu
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Originally posted by leo donahue:

I am a new grad. I would love to know more about how things work such as IO. But since I didn't get this type of training in my undergrad degree, at least from my school, I feel as though I'm missing big pieces of the overall puzzle in order to be marketable against those who do know things work such as IO.


I generally agree with others about marketability, I don't think that will be a problem. But you have a very valid point about missing big pieces of the puzzle. That's why I think it is very important for good programers to understand - "How things work and wht they work the way they work.", once you understand this rest is easy. Once you have a "general computing sense", you shouldn't be in awe of the technology, it's just a matter of getting exposure. Don't let your curiosity die!
Unfortunately, I have seen far too many Java programmers who ignore this (simplicity and high level abstraction of Java allows them to do so), and simply work like "trained monkeys", to use a terminology used by Mark in one of his earlier posts.
- Manish
 
Ranch Hand
Posts: 235
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I believe that RAD tools will just change what is possible in a given applications scope. Java programmers can enjoy not having to deal with pointers and the low-level memory management that C++ programmers must deal with. Does creating a GUI in a drag and drop IDE mean that we no longer need people who know Swing? To an extent...but experience in using JBuilder or Visual Age combined with enough Swing to know how to incorporate business logic/data layer will help...
Focus of skills may shift...just don't think of RAD as "cheating"...programmers are more valuable who acknowledge what tools are best to get the job done quicker...
 
Tim Holloway
Saloon Keeper
Posts: 22284
151
Android Eclipse IDE Tomcat Server Redhat Java Linux
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
You make it sound like RAD is something new!
 
Their achilles heel is the noogie! Give them noogies tiny ad!
Thread Boost feature
https://coderanch.com/t/674455/Thread-Boost-feature
    Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic