SCJP 1.4
SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I think that you can. I believe good comapnies will recognize that what you lack in Java experience you compensate with general experience, having been around the block on quite a few projects.
-----Mike Dahmus [email protected]
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:
Even at good companies, one resume in a batch of 1,000 doesn't get more than a cursory glance. This is where macroeconomics can defeat the libertarian ideal.
-----Mike Dahmus [email protected]
Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:
In the real world, unless you are getting hired through personal or professional contracts, your years of experience programming other languages hardly ever helps; you will not make it past the gatekeeper unless you match the laundry list.
In the real world, unless you are getting hired through personal or professional contracts, your years of experience programming other languages hardly ever helps; you will not make it past the gatekeeper unless you match the laundry list.
SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by Greg Neef:
The trouble with personal/professional contacts is after working at one company for 5 years, everybody I know professional (and no small share of those personally) works at the company that laid my a** off.
Originally posted by Billy Tsai
Even if u got through the selection process and get to the interview some the managers or the technical ppl in some company interviewing and testing u are just out to humiliate u, humiliate u like u r useless without experience, u dont have the enough certs...
posted by Matt Cao
Since your folks have a computer business, if I were you I would come out to business take the job as salesperson, practice human interactions, practice public speaking, and practice to make a right decision on a split of second
posted by Mark Herschberg
This is why you must actively network on your own. JUGs and other professional groups, alumni networking from your college, local business community events, even social settings are all areas where you can make new contacts outside your company
SCJP 1.4
Commentary From the Sidelines of history
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Well, you and I must be applying to different companies. Although I've never really worked with C/C++ (certainly not professionally), companies requiring a min of 2-3 years C/C++ experience have been talking to me.
--Mark
-----Mike Dahmus [email protected]
Originally posted by Greg Neef:
I am guessing that this and similar forums is not a representative sample of IT as most people who would be reading this are Out of Work and therefore probably frustrated and to varying degrees pissed off. Personally, I doubt I will be visiting Java Ranch much myself once I start working again and have time management issues again (even if it is to get to the loading dock job).
Originally posted by Mike Dahmus:
Yes, a few good companies will spend the time to talk to you because they see comparable experience in comparable technologies; but most will not, because even good companies are unwilling to filter thousands of resumes at that high a level of effort. So again, you're relying on either word-of-mouth or having the buzzwords (I've done both).
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Heck, JavaRanch is one of the factors that lead to my book.
SCJP
Originally posted by Rory French:
And while you're at it, why not shift your focus and try becomming an employer instead of an employee i.e. go 'where the real cheesecake is'. Here's an idea: why not act as a broker/middleman between programmers in India and clients in Australia/NZ. You can undercut the price of local programmers just enough to keep Indian programmers employed and youself deeply in the green for many years to come.
Rory
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I am guessing that this and similar forums is not a representative sample of IT as most people who would be reading this are Out of Work and therefore probably frustrated and to varying degrees pissed off.
Michael
SCJP2
Posted by Mark Herschberg
I think this is the wrong attitude to have. JavaRanch is useful so long as you can benefit from it. I get help on technical problems in the other forums. I also gain information from discussions in this forum. I have networked with people through JavaRanch. Heck, JavaRanch is one of the factors that lead to my book.
SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
You'll get no argument from me here on that. Those comapnies are the exception, not the rule. But that just makes it easier for me to find the few good comapnies; it saves me time from having to talk to not so good companies. If you want to be successful, always work with people smarter then you, because you learn from them. Smart people produce smart companies. Convesely, a smart company is likely to have people smarter then you, and you should work there.
(And just to avoid any misunderstanding, I'm using the term "you" in general. It applies to you, me, that guy over there, and everyone else.)
--Mark
-----Mike Dahmus [email protected]
Posted by Kevin Thompson
It depends on your looks! Your problem will be your age - not your lack of experience.
I can safely say I have no more interest in being a manager as I push 50 than I had at 25. Project politics still annoy me as much as ever, I am just a lot better pretending not to be pissed off. One advantage of being in a big company like IBM was that they have a techincal career path that allows techies to stay techincal and still make serious cash.Posted by Billy Tsai
I think after 35years old should be changing from technical to management
SCJP 1.4
SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by Greg Neef:
I can safely say I have no more interest in being a manager as I push 50 than I had at 25. Project politics still annoy me as much as ever, I am just a lot better pretending not to be pissed off. One advantage of being in a big company like IBM was that they have a techincal career path that allows techies to stay techincal and still make serious cash.
[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Greg Neef ]
[ July 30, 2003: Message edited by: Greg Neef ]
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Greg Neef:
In my experience there has been an ongoing battle between keeping up your technical chops and taking lead roles. The more time you spend doing project management and 'IT Architecture' the less time you have to actually get your hands dirty. I have continually tried to keep my hand in the technical s*** but it has been difficult if not impossible. I had no desire to lose touch with it but was given little choice by various employers. They have 'grunts' who can code and expect leads to be leading not coding. However, now that the technology has undergone a major paradigm shift, the jobs require J2EE expertise plus Project Management skills and/or IT Architecture. Being pretty good at both PM and Arch. roles, I would like to continue BUT without the hands on J2EE stuff my experience is not as marketable as I would like. I can think of no way to progress other than to get back into the coding (of Java) to be able to dovetail that knowledge with what I know very well of Project Management and System Architecture.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Ten Tips to Help IT Pros
Become More Marketable
By Joe Liberatore
To gain control over their careers, information-technology candidates must be aware of changing employment needs in their industries, functional areas and particular technologies.
Now that the economy is slowly inching forward, their best move is to determine where the hiring cycle is now or will be in the near future in IT and how to improve their prospects. Opportunities are available for senior candidates, particularly those willing to work as "temps" or in temp-to-perm jobs prior to a hiring upswing.
In all, 1.1 million new IT jobs will be created by 2004, reports the Information Technology Association of America. The need to find applications to reduce costs, integrate existing software systems and improve data security, as well as the continuing "Webification" of businesses, will drive demand for software engineers, computer-support specialists, network and computer-systems administrators, systems analysts, data-security professionals and information-systems managers.
Indicators to Watch
But anticipating the job market is a little like timing the stock market. A lot of people talk about it, but few are successful. Some indicators can serve as a good gauge.
The easiest trends to spot are demographic. Expect changes in both demand and supply. Any occupation or industry serving teens or the elderly will likely grow during the next decade, according to Leon (Lee) Hoke, a professor of economics and co-director of the TECO Energy Center for Leadership at the University of Tampa.
To serve the millennial group, the Bureau of Labor Statistics anticipates increased demand for elementary and secondary teachers and teacher aides. The health needs of aging baby boomers will require an increase in nurses, nurses aides and other health-care workers in hospitals, assisted-living facilities and nursing homes. According to the BLS, registered-nursing positions will grow 26% by 2010.
IT positions in health care should see corresponding increases, notes Johnny S. Tureaud, director of shared-business services at Genesis Health System, a multi-facility healthcare system based in Davenport, Iowa. Mr. Tureaud believes IT is driving clinical and business decision-making in health care.
"It's at the heart of process improvement," he says. "It's critical for health-care providers to leverage their IT functions to improve the efficiency and cost effectiveness of operations, helping them to get a better handle on growing reimbursement challenges."
Health-care employers will need to focus on recruiting and retaining staff in daily operations, systems-maintenance, system-installation/implementation, systems-diagnostics and help-desk functions at software and core-systems levels, Mr. Tureaud says.
The Story of a Search
For Sherri Fiumara, finding a job in health care was a drawn-out process. It took her five months before she received an offer as project lead/principal software engineer at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, a teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School in Boston. While the average U.S. job hunter takes about five months to find a new position nowadays, Ms. Fiumara had never had such a long search.
"In the past, I was able to rely on the strength of my resume. Working with one or two recruiters, I often found a position within four weeks," she says.
With 20 years of IT experience, Ms. Fiumara began job hunting after her position as applications-development manager at a law firm ended when the firm closed. She began working with recruiters; responding to Internet postings; setting up search agents on job-boards; and networking with former colleagues and contacts. She spent four to five hours per day on the search until she received a referral to her current role from a former colleague now at Beth Israel Deaconess.
Work Force Megatrends
In terms of supply, more employees will leave the work force than enter it as baby boomers retire. The U.S. Census Bureau estimates that the 60-to-64-year-old age group will increase by nearly 35% between July 2003 and July 2010. This is seemingly good news for senior professionals who want to advance in their careers or at least keep working.
But don't count on this trend as a solution to your career woes, says Myron A. Harmon, vice president of human resources for AchieveGlobal, a Tampa, Fla.-based firm specializing in customer service, sales and leadership training. While many baby boomers do plan to retire, a high percentage hope to work longer than usual to compensate for investment losses or previous bouts of unemployment, he says. In addition, many companies have consolidated jobs and eliminated management layers, so fewer senior positions will open up.
Steps to Improve Your Marketability
Here are 10 steps you can take to make yourself marketable and increase your chances of landing a good position:
1. Move beyond an industry focus. If there's one lesson to be learned from the Internet boom, it's that specific industry needs can come and go at warp speed. Industry demand moves constantly; the challenge is to identify where the demand is now and where it's going. Having moved from the high-tech, telecom and dot-com sectors, it's now centered on defense, data and network security and the always-strong areas of health care, education, government and utilities. These latter fields aren't glamorous and working in them may be considered a "flight to safety," but they do offer stability.
2. Anticipate the need to transfer your skills. Some skills transfer more readily than others, and this relates to the industry and type of application. It's more difficult, for example, for a systems analyst who develops highly specialized financial-services applications to move to another industry than it is for a UNIX systems administrator whose skills are needed across a number of industries. In a nutshell: while generic technical skills transfer, many applications requiring specific industry knowledge don't.
3. Understand the effect that the business climate has on your skills and your search. Several years ago, demand was high for enterprise-resource-planning gurus and those proficient in applications development for new systems. In today's economy, infrastructure upgrades are smaller, and there's little demand for individuals experienced in full-scale ERP initiatives.
4. Be willing to work as a temp or in a contract job. Until supply and demand in the IT job market reaches equilibrium, employers will try to eke out more productivity from existing staff, hire temporary employees or contract with other companies for employees. This means that candidates who are willing to accept untraditional work arrangements may have an edge.
5. Pay attention to soft skills. Employers want more than just technical skills. Professionals in management or aspiring to managerial positions must hone their communications, supervisory and managerial skills. Ms. Fiumara says she was asked about such skills while meeting with employers. "Interviewers placed a great deal of emphasis on softer skills, asking how I would interact in specific scenarios with end users."
6. Upgrade your skills. An economic down cycle may be a good time to pursue an advanced degree or other professional training, even if it's on your own dime. Choose a program that can help you reach your career goals. Individuals with experience in finance who choose to move to IT, for example, may want a master's degree in information systems or computer science rather than specific technical certification. Research future marketplace needs to help you choose a program that can position you for changing market demands. This combination of initiative and up-to-date training will help you jump to the front of the line when the market opens up.
7. Expand your contacts. Join professional groups and try to meet members who can help steer your career. To build relationships, concentrate less on "what's in it for me" and more on helping others.
8. Remember the value of a good defense. If you're employed, stay employed if it's within your control. You're always most marketable and have the greatest negotiating leverage while you have a job.
9. Study prospective employers. A lot of information is available, but too few candidates bother to research companies before contacting them or meeting interviewers. Start your research with networking contacts. If you've targeted a particular employer and want to speak with current employees, ask colleagues for referrals. If you like what the employees tell you, do more formal research.
Many sources are available on the Internet. If the company is public, review their government filings and analyst reports. Locate information about revenues, revenue history and growth, profitability trends, the composition and stability of management, corporate values, employee benefits and whether you would feel comfortable working there.
10. Be persistent. Remember that employers are always looking for the perfect employee. It's up to you to take personal ownership of your job search and to anticipate and overcome potential objections.
The job market will likely heat up and turn in candidates' favor again. This will cause the 'talent war' to expand to include many industries, skills and levels of employment. How you respond to a hot job market depends on your career stage. If you're winding down your career, try to maximize your earning ability during your final years, particularly if your salary declined recently.
If you're in early or mid-career, consider the long-term picture. Your goal should to position yourself for long-term economic security, not look for jobs that will pay you the most. Seek roles that fit your values and career goals. Individuals who become "job mercenaries" can often sabotage their careers in the long run
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
I thought you are a teacher. How did you have the time?
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
SCJP 1.4
Associate Instructor - Hofstra University
Amazon Top 750 reviewer - Blog - Unresolved References - Book Review Blog
Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I just wanted to add a comment about the problem of people without experience finding jobs. In 1979 when I got my first job, if could walk and chew gum without damaging the hardware too much you were given a job. By 1982 the bottom had fallen out of the market and newbies couldn't get a job if they were willing to pay the boss. A few years later the market was again hiring newbies and we couldn't find enough warm bodies to keep the head count up. So don't become too negative. Yes, the market sucks right now but it will get better because it always does.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
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