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Clash of Civilizations!!

 
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
There is no point in argueing with these guys.
BTW, are you from TamilNadu?


Yeah, that's true. My objective was never to convince them. It's a waste of energy. My objective was to encourage Indians to be assertive without shame. We, being a people of a third world and poor country, think that our culture and beliefs are inferior to theirs and we almost never assert what we feel. We, by default, assume that we are wrong. This attitude is reflected by our leadership as well. Look at china, they don't give a s*** about what others like UK/US think. They do what they want with full conviction. While Indian leaders dance around the globe pleasing US etc. I mean, if we conducted nuclear tests, what's the need to justify that to the west??? We felt there was a need and we did it. And why do we have to do it clandestinely? It is because of this attitude that countries like Pak and BDesh are ganging up on us.
The point is our culture is neither inferior nor superior, it is just different than theirs and there should be no hesitation to refuse any thing from their culture if it doesn't suit us. And on the same note, there should be any hesitation is assimilating into our culture what ever is beneficial to us.
And another thing is, we are responsible for ourselves. Who cares if other people do not agree with us?? Did they care when Hindus were massacared in Pak or B'Desh? No. Why would they? It's none of their business. Similarly, they have no business in preaching us the virtues of freedom of speech etc.
We know for a fact that missionaries and mullahs are creating trouble in our country. That's all that matters. Based on our observation we can take whatever action we deem necessary. No need to prove to anybody except other Indians.
No, I'm not from TN.
 
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Here is where "stupid logic" comes into play.
By my reckoning, conversion of a fellow citizen is NOT harming him or his property. A thug looting a fellow citizen IS harming him or his property. To make the link that:
- Jason would not interfere in a religious conversion, therefore...
- Jason would not interfere in the looting of a fellow citizen.
Perhaps Jason would not interfere in either, but your logic is flawed.
However, by applying your logic back on you, can I be correct in assuming that you place looting and religious conversion in the same category?
If so, then this explains a lot...


Your logic is correct but your basic premise of what constitues a personal property is flawed. Obviously, your inference will be wrong.
I believe, wrongfull conversions affect the society as a whole. I believe that because I have observed it first hand. And that's why I am putting looting personal property (at gun point or by fraud such as Enron scam) as well looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe) into the same category. If you have a problem accepting this philosophy, then I am sorry, we have nothing to discuss.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The intolerant rarely enjoy have their intolerance and hatred exposed.


Yea right you are very tolerent and peace loving person.
 
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Yeah, that's true. My objective was never to convince them. It's a waste of energy. My objective was to encourage Indians to be assertive without shame. We, being a people of a third world and poor country, think that our culture and beliefs are inferior to theirs and we almost never assert what we feel. We, by default, assume that we are wrong. This attitude is reflected by our leadership as well. Look at china, they don't give a s*** about what others like UK/US think. They do what they want with full conviction. While Indian leaders dance around the globe pleasing US etc. I mean, if we conducted nuclear tests, what's the need to justify that to the west??? We felt there was a need and we did it. And why do we have to do it clandestinely? It is because of this attitude that countries like Pak and BDesh are ganging up on us.
The point is our culture is neither inferior nor superior, it is just different than theirs and there should be no hesitation to refuse any thing from their culture if it doesn't suit us. And on the same note, there should be any hesitation is assimilating into our culture what ever is beneficial to us.
And another thing is, we are responsible for ourselves. Who cares if other people do not agree with us?? Did they care when Hindus were massacared in Pak or B'Desh? No. Why would they? It's none of their business. Similarly, they have no business in preaching us the virtues of freedom of speech etc.
We know for a fact that missionaries and mullahs are creating trouble in our country. That's all that matters. Based on our observation we can take whatever action we deem necessary. No need to prove to anybody except other Indians.
No, I'm not from TN.


Good for you for believing in the uniqueness of your culture. The problem is that you are trying to explain your views in this forum, and you are coming across as racist and intolerable. You can expect flak for what you write. You seem to advocate the solution of murder (correct me if I'm wrong!), and that will get you more flak.
There is a global moral standard. I didn't draft it, and I can't even tell you what the rules are. However, bringing the world to the brink of Nuclear Disaster by conducting above-ground n-tests against the wishes of the international community goes against them. As does directing hatred and blaming your problems on a segment of society, such as missionaries and mullahs.
Please don't act surprised because people disagree with your point of view.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The solution is to do away with the caste system and start treating people like human beings instead of chattel.


I agree with that 100%. In fact, from my first post I have been saying that we definitely have to improve many things.
However, improvement is different than replacement. While I am for improving my culture, I don't want to replace it with yours.


They want missionaries to help all the poor so they don't have to. The missionaries probably have limited funds so they help those who convert. Some people see this as a bribe.


Wait a minute....we don't want them to help. Who is inviting them here??? Leave us alone.


Imagine a soup kitchen in a poor neighborhood. The people who run the soup kitchen say they have very limited resources so they can only feed poor parishioners. Do we curse them for not feeding everyone? Or do we applaud them for doing what they can to help those they can? Do we claim they are bribing people to convert?


You are totaly contriving the analogy and you know it, Thomas. Imagine a soup kitchen in New York City run by a white man. What if he puts a board saying, "Only for whites"??? Obviously, blacks don't have any option because they can't change their color. While poor people in India have a option because changing your religion is possible and relatively easy.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Your logic is correct but your basic premise of what constitues a personal property is flawed. Obviously, your inference will be wrong.
I believe, wrongfull conversions affect the society as a whole. I believe that because I have observed it first hand. And that's why I am putting looting personal property (at gun point or by fraud such as Enron scam) as well looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe) into the same category. If you have a problem accepting this philosophy, then I am sorry, we have nothing to discuss.


Pakka:
If I read you correctly, then you are placing a person's spiritual identity as part of their personal property (I apologize if this is not your intent). I do NOT have a problem with you accepting this as your philosophy - knowing your beliefs makes me know you. But please do not accept these beliefs as mine. I believe that you cannot keep your spiritual identity in the same bank as your worldly goods.
It is interesting to see that you have added bribery to the list of unacceptable methods of conversion. I am glad that we are all talking the same language! I am unclear on your meaning of "wrongful conversion". Is it a conversion that wasn't meant to be? Is it a conversion where you meant to convert the guy next to you? Is it a conversion that was done for the money? And who gets to decide these things?
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
The problem is that you are trying to explain your views in this forum, and you are coming across as racist and intolerable.


Which post of mine made to think that I am racist? Where did I say that Indian culture and people are superior to others?


However, bringing the world to the brink of Nuclear Disaster by conducting above-ground n-tests against the wishes of the international community goes against them.


Get your facts straight mister. Indian tests wer underground (not above the ground). India conducted only 5 tests as compared to hundreds by US/Russia/France?China that too above the ground. Did they care about the international community?


As does directing hatred and blaming your problems on a segment of society, such as missionaries and mullahs.


I am not blaming all the problems on them. I was the first to admit that we have to improve. I am saying that they are one of the problems.


Please don't act surprised because people disagree with your point of view.


I am not surprised. Not at all. I know that my point of view is not agreable by people in the west. And I can't expect them to agree either. Simply because they do not fully know the ground realities about India.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Pakka:
It is interesting to see that you have added bribery to the list of unacceptable methods of conversion.


Please do yourself a favor: Please read all the posts that have been made before. I have not added anything new.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Which post of mine made to think that I am racist? Where did I say that Indian culture and people are superior to others?


You did not say Indian culture is superior, I didn't say you said it! When you blamed mullahs and missionaries - sorry, but to me that smacks of racism.


Get your facts straight mister.


Sorry, a typo. I should not have mentioned above-. As far as international community, times change. What's OK in the '60's (by USSR and USA) is no longer OK. I'll admit it doesn't seem fair. The international community (read US?) does not like the current situation between India/Pakistan, and I cannot offer a constructive solution. I just know that I see actions by both sides that indicate cooler heads could be used.


I am not blaming all the problems on them. I was the first to admit that we have to improve. I am saying that they are one of the problems.


Honestly, would their absence make the problems they "create" go away? Or would it lead to other problems? I don't know the answer to that one. But it still goes back to a recurring theme - if you blame your problems on a segment of society, then you are being intolerant and racist. I don't think that's an opinion - that's an application of a definition.
Anyway, thank you for your views.
 
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

Pakka:
If I read you correctly, then you are placing a person's spiritual identity as part of their personal property (I apologize if this is not your intent).


In fact, I would say, a person's spritual property is more that just his/her property. It is also a part of the shared property of the community.
It's like a public train. While it is a public property and thus yours too, you do not have the right to take home a light bulb or a fan or a wheel from it. While it is the duty of every citizen to improve it, it is not acceptable for a citizen to disintegrate it.
Tell me this, if you see somebody is inciting a fellow citizen to take out the wheel of a train (by say, explaining to him that the train is a public property and is thus his. He has to right to take out the wheel). What will you do?
Well, it might sound funny/wrong/illogical to you, but I feel the same way when an outsider lures people into changing his religion. While it is his right to change the religion, I feel that he is taking out something from the shared property. While I am all for improvement of the system, I am against disintegrating it.
 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by <Pakka Desi>:

Please do yourself a favor: Please read all the posts that have been made before. I have not added anything new.


I HAVE read all the posts, and my point was that rather than just using the phrase "forced conversion" you used the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe)". In reading the previous posts, I felt that there was a failure to communicate because of what each person's definition of "forced conversion" was.
BTW - the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity" is very elegant.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

I don't think that's an opinion - that's an application of a definition.


Sorry, I don't subscribe to that definition of rasicm. It is a known fact that there is more trouble in poor black neighbourhoods. And if there is a crime nearyby, and if the police immediately starts combing the back neighbourhood or starts stopping the vehicals occupied by black people, is that racism? I don't think so. I think it is pragmatism.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

There's the rub. Who gets to decide? You?


Yes, I get to decide. I'll vote for the party party that I feel believes what I believe in.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Clearly you do. But you are wrong. Your train analogy is wrong. let's say you and all friends sit on the train with both feet flat on the floor. A man comes in and tells your friends that sitting cross legged is much more comfortable. He even offers them $5 to try it. They accept and decide they like sitting cross legged. Is it your right to beat up the man for bribing your friends into violating your cultural beliefs?
Christians don't steal light bulbs or wheels on trains. What they are doing is pointing out to some of the people on the train that they are being forced to sit in the lousy seats in order to support a system that lets others sit in the buffet car. And that the only reason for this is because they had the "wrong" parents. Naturally, those who are in the buffet car resent this intrusion on what they see as their right to the buffet car. And rather than address a system that keeps people out of the buffet car, they hire thugs to throw the Christians off the train.


Nope, they are not doing that. I would have no objection if they spent their energy in improving the system. What they are doing is they are enticing the people to change the whole f***ing train. They are enticing the people to build their own train by taking out parts from the original one. I don't want that.
 
Anonymous
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why? What makes your opinion better than that of the poor? Because you aren't an "untouchable"? Because you are better than them? Because they are too stupid to make decisions that effect their lives?
You certainly do have hubris.


What makes their opinion superior to mine?
Come on, Thomas. You are taking the sentence out of context. I also said, I will vote for the party I feel is right. That is how I get to decide. If you are a replublican, what makes you think that democrat's openion is inferior to yours? But you'll still vote for a republican, right?
BTW, in India illiterate also have the the right to vote. (SO I am not the ONLY ONE who gets to decide.) And more often than not they misuse their power (unknowingly and innocently, I'll concede). And their vote caries the same wight as mine.
Here is how: just before elections, the candidates go into such localities and provide booze or clothes or food etc. ....just a day before the election. Obviously, it is not difficult to understand why people with criminal background have become our leaders. That's democracy in action.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
Why should they work to improve a system designed to perpetuate human suffering? Why not overhaul the train?


Again, you are talking as if your culture is superior to ours. Are there no problems/sufferings in christian countries? In Islamic countries? Should they overhaul their religion too?
Just because US/UK etc. dont have such kind of sufferings, do you think that all christian countries don't have sufferings?
You are getting more are more illogical with each post.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:

I HAVE read all the posts, and my point was that rather than just using the phrase "forced conversion" you used the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity (by physical force or bribe)". In reading the previous posts, I felt that there was a failure to communicate because of what each person's definition of "forced conversion" was.
BTW - the phrase "looting one of one's spiritual identity" is very elegant.



Since you are keep chanting about bribary over force, let me tell you this. We dont care what word you use, because you dont know the ground reality. Have you ever been to India? I grown up there, so I know what the difference between bribary and force. Force doesnt have to be a physical force. US forced Pakistan to aligh with them in the war on terriorism (terriorism which targets western interests). Did they use any physical force for that?
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
And I posted links about how the missionaries and church help terriorist in northeastern part of India. Did any of you care to condemn it? Here all I am seeing is people worry about some missionaries got killed.
 
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:


Since you are keep chanting about bribary over force, let me tell you this. We dont care what word you use, because you dont know the ground reality. Have you ever been to India? I grown up there, so I know what the difference between bribary and force. Force doesnt have to be a physical force. US forced Pakistan to aligh with them in the war on terriorism (terriorism which targets western interests). Did they use any physical force for that?
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
And I posted links about how the missionaries and church help terriorist in northeastern part of India. Did any of you care to condemn it? Here all I am seeing is people worry about some missionaries got killed.

 
Mark Milan
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
[QB]
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
[QB]


I don't live in India; I may never even visit - that is my loss. I do have a set of values (and definitions) that I believe in. I know that Jesus told his followers to love unconditionally, so my opinion is that these Christian Missionaries, if they are using bribery as a tool for conversion, are not following the Word of God.
The other solution that fits is that they are not bribing poor people. I am not closing my ears, but I am not accepting everything on blind faith.
Does this answer your question?
 
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Dear Thomas,
Very rightly said by you:
"The religious problems in India are created by people who are intolerant to other religious beliefs"
I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland.
As a matter of fact forced conversion (or any conversion) is not a major issue with most Indians. If you see any mainstream Indian newspaper, there won't be any mention of this on first page. Most people are more concerned with "bread and butter" issues - economy, law and order etc, which is same in most countries I guess.
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: aniruddha mukhopadhyay ]
[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: aniruddha mukhopadhyay ]
 
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I am learning quite a bit about the US in this thread.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by Mark Milan:
I don't live in India; I may never even visit - that is my loss. I do have a set of values (and definitions) that I believe in. I know that Jesus told his followers to love unconditionally, so my opinion is that these Christian Missionaries, if they are using bribery as a tool for conversion, are not following the Word of God.


That said it all. No more questions.
 
San Su
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Originally posted by aniruddha mukhopadhyay:
I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland.


Dude, how can you say there is a problem in their own backyard??? After all they are tolerant and peace loving people. How come..
 
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Originally posted by aniruddha mukhopadhyay:
I hope many will agree that same is true for religious problems elsewhere in the world ..say Ireland.


This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political. The two sides are often identified by their religions, but I suspect that is more out of convenience than anything else (easier than identifying them as "the party descended from immigrant Scots and the party descended from the original inhabitants of the island" or something like that). They are definitely not fighting for or in the name of religion. Religion really plays little if any part at all in that conflict.
 
Jason Menard
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Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I am learning quite a bit about the US in this thread.


Such as?
 
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:
That said it all. No more questions.


Mark can speak for himself of course, but as I agreed with the point I want to amplify it. You left out the part where he indicated that just because you claim something is happening (in the absence of proof for and in the presence of proof against) doesn't mean anyone believes it is happening the way it has been presented.
 
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Originally posted by Sankar Subbiah:

well.. I dont know what socity you belong. Is that what they define as freedom? What is the diffence between you and the "rebels" who killed the missionaries? They hurt people physically and your socity hurt people mentally. And, I dont want to come down to your level and saying anyting about your wife or sister or daughter. I expect you will have that same decency and engage in a civilized discussion.
And, You are talking about speech and violence, I am talking about THINK(freedom of thought) and ACT(hurting other people by your action, mental or physical). You still didnt get it, dont you?


your vocabulary is good, you can put your thoughts in much better way ........
AW its not clash of civilization its clash of definitions.
 
R K Singh
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I am learning quite a bit about India.


First man to learn swimming without entring into water.
 
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initially posted by Sankar
{
Ok anyway, let me take your point, say they are bribing the poor community to accept chiristianity in return for money. What is your thought on this? Is it bad or is it ok to take whatever means to convert peoples faith?
}
What is wrong/right is decided by constitution and the law.Its perfectly legal in India to say:
1)I am changing my religion from X to Y bcos people from religion Y are treating me well than those from X.
2)I am changing my religion from X to Y bcos some people from religion Y are offering me help for better quality of life than those from X.
Architect of the constitution Dr Ambedkar had openly called the Dalit people to change their religion from Hinduism to Buddhism bcos later has more human approach than former ,according to him.This was in 1956.More than 50,000 people converted in 1 day
Was that a forced conversion?
These 'forced conversion' etc issues are coming up in last 15 years only,the time Hindu extremists were increasing at alarming rate to destroy the secular fabric of a country.
After coming to power first time in 1996 at the center,RSS guys 'skillfully' created the environment that Indian constitution is not 'proper'and lot of ammendments are necessary to prevent 'forced conversion'etc.
Despite of having largest number of senators in the parliament , these people are unsuccessful to to do such kind of things, bcos 'forced conversion' does not exist So they tried different ways to irritate the general population to divert the main issues.
 
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Spent more than one hour reading the post from beginning to the end
What makes me smile is that both factions are wrong ... or for that matter right ... but I won't offer any arguement ... it is my policy not to get into an arguement without a real reason
 
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As a freshman at Harvard College, physicist David Balamuth read C.P. Snow's famous Rede lecture, The Two Cultures, and was intrigued. . . . After reading about these concerns, the Harvard freshman class went to hear a distinguished poet and an equally distinguished biologist discuss them. Balamuth listened carefully and came away with the 'dead sure certainty that C.P. Snow had it right.' The poet and the scientist had spent the entire evening talking past each other. 'I don't think either one heard a word the other said.'"
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:
[QB]
This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.


What are you trying to say? cultural and political intolerance is ok? Or whatever intolerance in the west is ok?
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sankar Subbiah ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

Such as?


Yikes! Did I say "the US"? I mean Japan...
 
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There's clash of civilisation because one thing, the film 'The Matrix' is not shown to the Islamic community. They ought to take such show seriously and even go to the extend of creating matrix II or matrix III themselves. We would like to see their version. We should question how they gonna prove that the matrix don't exists (that's a tough one) and watch how their facial expression changes slowly as this question is put to them.
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
People do it in the US all the time


Why cant you come out of US ?
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
It's none of your business.


Its none of your business.
If a missionary is murdered in our country then its our problem what we do with it and how we deal with it. Its none of your business.
When you US guys will stop poking nose in others matter.
If you want to say something as per his being a christian then you can say whatever you want but FROM US and still wont be called religious sick people.
Now dont defend yourself that it was a human life... there more human are dying in India in Kashmir than in any other state.
Thanks for your definition of freedom.
Profanity is not allowed in publlic forum but abusing religion is allowed.
No... I am not abusing your religion.
I know it. But religion is religion. let it be yours or mine.
Get life.
Its none of your business, what we are doing in India and how our govt. (US is not only republican country....)deals with anything
OR you can keep saying like moron.
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.


I don't think so, Jason! Here is a BBC article on the Northern Ireland Police Recruitment that recently took place. Police recruitment 'will be 50:50'
I know the local sentiments and the history of Republic of Ireland and NI, because I am living in Republic of Ireland for last 2 years, just 45 minutes away by road from NI.
History shows that this is about the communal disharmony between Catholics and Protestants. This week RealIRA has declared a fresh start to their activities and have asked citizens to stay away from Army and Airforce bases in NI, so that they won't get hurt in RealIRA's operations.
Its sad, but true and you got to admit it.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Ashok Manayangath ]
 
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Originally posted by Jason Menard:

you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.


LOL
 
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Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I think this says it all. Protect yourself? What a laugh. India will never become a first world country as long as attitudes like your's exist. Want to know why you have religious problems in India? Look in the mirror.


If thinking of people of first world country is like YOU then I would not like my country to be first world country.
 
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jason Menard:
This is a common misconception. If you look into the situation in Northern Ireland, you will see that the problems are not religious, they are cultural and political.
------------------------------------------------
Thanks Ashok,
I was under the same impression - but must confess that my idea about Ireland is mainly from Leon Uris book "Trinity". Jason had quoted only one part of my post. What I had written (or meant while posting) was that religious strife is there in other parts of the world as well (apart from India) and arises mainly from intolerant attitude.
[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: aniruddha mukhopadhyay ]
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