Heh, another good reason to vote Democrat this year

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So how many religion X guys you know who have tried to kill you ??

this is not what I wanted to ask ??
Let me rephrase it.
So how many religion X guys you know 'personaly', who tried to kill you.
Did you know any of the Islamic terrorist who attacked and tried to topple tower ??
What was the name of serial killer, yes....Jack the Ripper, so should I conclude that all christians are basically serial killer.
So the answer is at least a couple of dozen but probably several hundred.
Let them be several hundred, but never forget the several millions X who do not want to kill you.
[ February 25, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Anthony Joseph Pluta]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
He makes about 30 different faces in the space of two or three minutes, and it's incredible fun to watch.

:roll:

[Mapraputa Is]

BM: You cannot shout on the top of your voice that you support the war, that your country is the greatest because it liberates others from suffering, and at the same time back off from your duty and discourage your own kids while your neighbor's kids are fighting for you.
JP: I can do exactly that, because I am a human being, and I don't have to live by your code of ethics, or anybody else's. What I have to do is live with my own ethics and my relationship with my God.
That's Ok, but from now on I am going to respond differently to YOUR "America is the greatest country in the world", as opposed to somebody who actually had to stand behind his words.
This reminds me my childhood. I tried to ask people about the War, and those who actually had to go through it, didn't want to talk about it.

[Joe Pluta]

That's Ok, but from now on I am going to respond differently to YOUR "America is the greatest country in the world", as opposed to somebody who actually had to stand behind his words.
This insinuation that I don't stand behind my words is perhaps the most baseless comment I've heard here. I ALWAYS stand behind my words, often all by myself against several people. I answer every question put to me, unlike some folks who ignore the tough questions and answer only those that they can spin to their point of view.
It's also fun to watch how moderators get nasty real quick when they don't liek things. The fact that you don't like what I say seems to give you carte blanche to throw the JavaRanch rules out the window and insult me. But that's okay, because all in all, I find the conversations to be less invigorating and the arguments to be ever more personal and ever more specious. This last issue about how putting one's family in the front line is honorable just makes me sick.
Over the last several days, I've come to the observation that trying to discuss anything of relevance here is an exercise in futility. I see little effort to learn and grow, instead I see constant argument and petty abuse. I personally gain little intellectual growth from repetitive castigation like what I quoted above. I've tried to carry on adult conversations, but they generally devolve into this sort of insult, and I don't really need it.
So, don't expect me to be chiming in on philosophy any more. It's simply not worth the effort. You want to call me some more names, make some more nasty comments about me, feel free. It's no longer an issue, you've finally managed to surpass my endurance for punishment.
It just ain't that important.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

Joe: This insinuation that I don't stand behind my words is perhaps the most baseless comment I've heard here. I ALWAYS stand behind my words, often all by myself against several people.
That's not what I was talking about.
This last issue about how putting one's family in the front line is honorable just makes me sick.
I thought it's just me, but it's turned out that many of us have very different perspective on this. Sometimes you don't have a choice. It's not sick, it's killing.
I see little effort to learn and grow, instead I see constant argument and petty abuse.
Do you ever understand what we are talking about?

[Joe King]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Just got done taping Anthony as he woke up. He makes about 30 different faces in the space of two or three minutes, and it's incredible fun to watch. Then I picked him up and kissed his cheeks, and (reluctantly) gave him to his mommy.
With that fresh in my mind, let me be perfectly clear on this issue.
Should the teeming masses of humanity be threatened with extinction, should the Earth itself be ready to explode, should the very Universe be on the edge of destruction, I would not sacrifice this child.
I can see me huddled in a crumblnig foundation shielding AJ with my body, fire falling from the sky, the sun mottled and distorted as it begins its disintegration. A shimmering alien in translucent silver garb stands over us and demands that I give up the child to save the entire Cosmos.
Folks, consider yourself outsourced, because the alien's going away empty handed. I don't care how unrealistic, I don't care how fatalistic, I don't care how immoral you paint me. If you haven't held an 8-day old child of your own in a while, and if you can't understand what I'm saying, then you're missing out on the greatest thing in the world.
Joe

Like it or loath it, this statement shows clearly that we humans are, above anything else, still animals with animal instincts. In time of stress logic goes out of the window, and the same instincts that protected our ancestors comes into play. We can argue points of logic and morality, but these are just on the surface - underneath it all we are just animals like all the rest (but with a few fancy tricks), and like most other mammals, our pack comes first instinctivly. It may be a terrible thing in this case, but at least it makes us human and not robots.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Joe King:

Like it or loath it, this statement shows clearly that we humans are, above anything else, still animals with animal instincts.

yep

[ChanSan Mehbubani]

Don't generalize this boys bcos you think you are animals. Are Mother Teresa and Bin Laden same?
Tanga Palti

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Tanga Palti:
Don't generalize this boys bcos you think you are animals. Are Mother Teresa and Bin Laden same?
Tanga Palti

Lucifer .... is also God
What is good for you might be bad for someone else.
And scientifically to philosophically, we all are animal.
Have not you seen dog and cat living together ??? So does it mean that that dog does not have basic animal instincts ??

[Thomas Paul]

Should the teeming masses of humanity be threatened with extinction, should the Earth itself be ready to explode, should the very Universe be on the edge of destruction, I would not sacrifice this child.
That is not love. That is selfishness. Love is never selfish.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
That is not love. That is selfishness. Love is never selfish.

Love is the only thing which makes you selfish.

[Joe Pluta]

That is not love. That is selfishness. Love is never selfish.
The problem here is that you are the self-appointed arbiter of what love is. The good thing is that I don't have to listen to you. Instead, my concept of love is between me and my God, and I'll sleep much better with mine than yours.
From now on, just leave me out of your proselytizing, if you don't mind, and I'll leave you out of mine.
Joe

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
From now on, just leave me out of your proselytizing, if you don't mind, and I'll leave you out of mine.

Then don't ask for my opinion.

Love is patient; love is kind and envies no one. Love is never boastful, nor conceited, nor rude; never selfish, not quick to take offense. Love keeps no score of wrongs; does not gloat over others� sins, but delights in the truth. There is nothing love cannot face; there is no limit to its faith, its hope, and its endurance. Love will never come to an end.

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
The problem here is that you are the self-appointed arbiter of what love is.

Actually it is Saint Paul.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: Thomas Paul ]

[Thomas Paul]

Did you know any of the Islamic terrorist who attacked and tried to topple tower ??
I don't personally know any Muslims.
Let them be several hundred, but never forget the several millions X who do not want to kill you.
I don't know that there are several millions who don't want to kill me. What would happen if I walked in to Mecca? What would happen if I went to Saudia Arabia and preached Christianity?

[Ernest Friedman-Hill]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:

Over the last several days, I've come to the observation that trying to discuss anything of relevance here is an exercise in futility.

[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: Ernest Friedman-Hill ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:

I don't personally know any Muslims.

Here lies your problem.
You are surviving on second hand information.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
I don't know that there are several millions who don't want to kill me.

You must know this.

What would happen if I walked in to Mecca? What would happen if I went to Saudia Arabia and preached Christianity?

What you want to convey is beyond my little intelligence.
Every home has its own set of rules and same applies to countries. One has no right to object what is going on in someone else home till it disturbs you.
I wish there wont be many people with this kind of thinking who cant diffrentiate between terrorist and normal man.

[Joe Pluta]

Thanks, Ernest, I needed that
Joe (Proud Papa of Anthony Joseph) Pluta

[Jason Menard]

One has no right to object what is going on in someone else home till it disturbs you.
I'm not going to bother rehashing this again, but didn't we already debate this concept in an older thread? The one where one or two people claimed that it was okay for someone to beat their wife and children in the confines of their own home and the majority who condemned such acts and stated that no matter where those acts take place it is everyone's responsibility to put a stop to them if they are aware of them? Sounds vaguely familiar to me.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
The one where one or two people claimed that it was okay for someone to beat their wife and children in the confines of their own home and the majority who condemned such acts and stated that no matter where those acts take place it is everyone's responsibility to put a stop to them if they are aware of them?

Let wife and children come and ask for help. A serious advice, if they dont ask for help then never help them.
If one's heart is still crying for them then maximum one can do for her is to ask her whether she needs help or not. If she say yes then do whatever one can do for her.
But without permission helping someone ... ?? Be ready for surprises
BTW what do you mean by "majority" ??
When Socrates was killed majority wanted him to be killed so I think only fools make majority.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Let wife and children come and ask for help. A serious advice, if they dont ask for help then never help them.

So if the 3 month old baby doesn't crawl to your door and ask for help he is out of luck?

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
So if the 3 month old baby doesn't crawl to your door and ask for help he is out of luck?

Are you serious ??
BTW how will you know that 3 months old baby needs help FROM you ??

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Are you serious ??
BTW how will you know that 3 months old baby needs help FROM you ??

The constant screaming from the child. The constant sound of banging. The constant sound of, "Shut up or I'll beat you more". The cigarette burn marks on the child's arms. There are a few clues that might signify something to you.

[Thomas Paul]

Originally posted by Joe Pluta:
Over the last several days, I've come to the observation that trying to discuss anything of relevance here is an exercise in futility.

If by that you mean that everyone doesn't immediately agree with everything you write then yes, it is an excercise in futility. But if that is what you want then blogging would probably be a better choice.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
The constant screaming from the child.

He has stomach ache. Most common reason for crying infants.
The constant sound of banging.
assumptions
The constant sound of, "Shut up or I'll beat you more".
assumptions
The cigarette burn marks on the child's arms.
If father allows you to see his child then you must be knowing that person and if you know him then obviously you can advice him that burning child with cigarette might put him behind bars and ask his wife whether you should take same action or not.
If wife is not there by any chance then as you know that person personally[because he invited you inside his house to visit his child and let you see cigs burn marks], you can slap him too.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

[Joe Pluta]

If by that you mean that everyone doesn't immediately agree with everything you write then yes, it is an excercise in futility.
This from someone who insists that I subscribe to his interpretation of one man's exposition of one religion's definition of love, and ONLY that interpretation.
This from someone who says, "Oh no, I cannot strike that stranger to save my child, or I will burn in Hell!"
This from someone who with "love" will let his child die to avoid a stain on his own soul, but calls me selfish for saving my own child at any cost.
And you say I want everyone to agree with ME. This borders between sad and funny, it really does.
Joe

[Mapraputa Is]

This from someone who with "love" will let his child die to avoid a stain on his own soul,
To avoid murdering -- do you see the difference?
but calls me selfish for saving my own child at any cost.
At any cost? Are you saying there is no limit on how many "strangers" you would be willing to murder to save your child? Actually, you said just this, but I assumed you were in a romantic mood when you said it. Seriously, is there a limit?

[Thomas Paul]

This from someone who insists that I subscribe to his interpretation of one man's exposition of one religion's definition of love, and ONLY that interpretation.
I don't insist that you subscribe to anything. You on the other hand seem to demand that I subscribe to your beliefs to the point that you constantly complain because I don't agree with you. You practically had a stroke when I quoted Saint Paul.
This from someone who says, "Oh no, I cannot strike that stranger to save my child, or I will burn in Hell!"
You are the one who brought up going to hell, not me. This isn't about fear of hell. It is about love.
This from someone who with "love" will let his child die to avoid a stain on his own soul, but calls me selfish for saving my own child at any cost.
This has nothing to do with a stain on my soul. It has to do with doing what is right. People are not objects to use as you see fit. It is true that I not willing to murder innocent people to save my child. But that is not because of the fear of a "stain" on my soul. It is because murdering innocents is always wrong. In my opinion, your road justifies any evil act as long as you do it in the name of your child.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
Let wife and children come and ask for help. A serious advice, if they dont ask for help then never help them.

The wife is an adult so therefore most of the burden is on her for seeking help. The most a bystander can do is call the police if they believe their neighbors are having a domestic dispute - and they should call the police, not just ignore it.
Children are a different case. They cannot legally make their own decisions to determine what is in their best interests. If their parents abuse or allow their children to be abused or if the children are living in conditions of severe neglect then it is time for society to step in. It doesn't matter in the slightest what the child wants or what their opinion is on the matter, as they are not suited to make a decision as to what is in their own best interests.
Luckily society has the mechanisms in place to protect children (when those mechanisms work correctly at least). It is the responsibility of every adult member of society to report to the proper authorities when they suspect a child is being abused or neglected. The state agency will investigate and make a determination, removing the child (or children) from the household if necessary and seeing that people are prosecuted if appropriate. Further, some people have a legal responsibility (as opposed to simply the moral responsibility that every adult has) to report suspected child abuse. Health care providers for example must report suspected cases of abuse, as must teachers I believe, among others.
Any adult who fails in their responsibility to protect those members of society who cannot protect themselves by knowingly allowing abuse to continue without reporting it shares some measure or responsibility in the abuse.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: Jason Menard ]

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by R K Singh:

He has stomach ache. Most common reason for crying infants.
The constant sound of banging.
assumptions
The constant sound of, "Shut up or I'll beat you more".
assumptions
The cigarette burn marks on the child's arms.
If father allows you to see his child then you must be knowing that person and if you know him then obviously you can advice him that burning child with cigarette might put him behind bars and ask his wife whether you should take same action or not.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

And what if the father tells him to shut up & to mind his own business & continues to use the child to extinguish his cigarette?

Originally posted by R K Singh:

If wife is not there by any chance then as you know that person personally[because he invited you inside his house to visit his child and let you see cigs burn marks], you can slap him too.
[ February 26, 2004: Message edited by: R K Singh ]

And then what if he takes his gun out & shoots him :roll:

Sorry Ravish, you position will not be acceptable to me if I were ever in this situation. There are enough cases of child abuse in US (including sexual abuse of children) that if I know that a child is being abused by the parent (whether I know the parent or not) I'll interfere/call the police/or do something to help that child. You may feel safe & secure sitting in your ivory tower that every abused person will or even has the strength to ask for help but I don't.
I personally know of one case where a young girl was molested by her father and she was so full of guilt that it was somehow her fault that she couldn't tell anyone for quite some time.
So, it is not so cut & dry. Some abused/battered wives are deathly scared of going to the police. There are times when even a restraining order hasn't helped an abused/battered woman.

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:

The wife is an adult so therefore most of the burden is on her for seeking help. The most a bystander can do is call the police if they believe their neighbors are having a domestic dispute - and they should call the police, not just ignore it.
Children are a different case. They cannot legally make their own decisions to determine what is in their best interests. If their parents abuse or allow their children to be abused or if the children are living in conditions of severe neglect then it is time for society to step in. It doesn't matter in the slightest what the child wants or what their opinion is on the matter, as they are not suited to make a decision as to what is in their own best interests.
Luckily society has the mechanisms in place to protect children (when those mechanisms work correctly at least). It is the responsibility of every adult member of society to report to the proper authorities when they suspect a child is being abused or neglected. The state agency will investigate and make a determination, removing the child (or children) from the household if necessary and seeing that people are prosecuted if appropriate. Further, some people have a legal responsibility (as opposed to simply the moral responsibility that every adult has) to report suspected child abuse. Health care providers for example must report suspected cases of abuse, as do teachers I believe, among others.
Any adult who fails in their responsibility to protect those members of society who cannot protect themselves by knowingly allowing abuse to continue without reporting it shares some measure or responsibility in the abuse.

101% agree with you if proper authorities are contacted instead of helping by themselves.

[Thomas Paul]

If wife is not there by any chance then as you know that person personally[because he invited you inside his house to visit his child and let you see cigs burn marks], you can slap him too.
I thought you said you couldn't intervene?
Anyway, I can see that the news article will start with, "In a recreation of the Kitty Genovese case, a neighbor, R. K. Singh, heard the screaming of the child and did nothing. Today that child's lifeless body was taken to the mourge and her parents placed under arrest. Mr. Singh refused to comment."

[Sadanand Murthy]

Originally posted by Thomas Paul:
If wife is not there by any chance then as you know that person personally[because he invited you inside his house to visit his child and let you see cigs burn marks], you can slap him too.
I thought you said you couldn't intervene?
Anyway, I can see that the news article will start with, "In a recreation of the Kitty Genovese case, a neighbor, R. K. Singh, heard the screaming of the child and did nothing. Today that child's lifeless body was taken to the mourge and her parents placed under arrest. Mr. Singh refused to comment."

"In a recreation of the Kitty Genovese case, a neighbor, R. K. Singh, heard the screaming of the child and went in to investigate. What he saw enraged him and he slapped the father of the child. The father, known to his friends as Sammy the Chin, took out his piece and whacked Mr. Singh. The next day child's lifeless body was taken to the morgue and her parents placed under arrest."
I know this is nothing to make a joke about, but I couldn't resist the "slap" version.

[Jason Menard]

Originally posted by R K Singh:
101% agree with you if proper authorities are contacted instead of helping by themselves.

If it's happening in public I very well might intervene, as should any other adult. In any event, this statemtent now goes against your original comment which was not to intervene (contacting the authorities is intervening) unless someone asks for help.
I was with a group of people once at a restaurant. Around four of them were standing out front smoking while the rest of us were inside. A mini-van comes screaming into the parking lot, an adult female gets out of the drivers seat (an adult male was in the passenger's seat), slides open the door to the back and starts severely beating on a small child restrained in some sort of child seat. My friends who were outside saw this and approached the van, surrounded it, and instructed the woman to stop. She told them it was none of their business (the male wisely stayed in the van) but she halted in her beating of the screaming child. They called in the plate and descriptions to the police, while she got in the van, turned her lights off (so they couldn't read the plate I guess), and sped out of the parking lot. So what would you have done? Stood there and watched?

[Mapraputa Is]

RS: Let wife and children come and ask for help. A serious advice, if they dont ask for help then never help them.
JM: The wife is an adult so therefore most of the burden is on her for seeking help.
Women who have to live in these conditions are getting severely damaged. My sister has an alcoholic husband -- and he didn't become an alcoholic overnight. She had to live through all this with him, and I would not rely on her judgment!
I cannot agree with your "if they dont ask for help then never help them" statement.

[Jason Menard]

JM: The wife is an adult so therefore most of the burden is on her for seeking help.
MI: Women who have to live in these conditions are getting severely damaged. My sister has an alcoholic husband -- and he didn't become an alcoholic overnight. She had to live through all this with him, and I would not rely on her judgment!
I cannot agree with your "if they dont ask for help then never help them" statement.
That certainly wasn't my statement. I may have glossed over it a bit on the way to my main point, but there are things that can be done. You can always talk to the woman and try to convince her to change her situation. You can put her in touch with people who can help her out. You can be a friend to her and let her know that you'll be there for her. What you can't do, because she's an adult, is force her to do anything. She has to make the ultimate decision to change her circumstances.
Many states have domestic abuse laws such that if the police are called to the scene of a domestic, they have to lock up and charge the person responsible (usually the man), so this does take some measure of burden off the woman. In other words, if you know there is domestic violence in progress, then calling the police is something you can do to hopefully alleviate the situation.
A friend and I were subpoenaed once to testify for the state in a domestic assault case. The guy beat on his wife and eleven year old daughter. IIRC he punched the little girl in the face and choked her. He wisely took a plea and neither of us had to testify (not that we had much to offer anyway). My point is that the system can work if people get the ball rolling, such as by calling the police when these things occur.

[R K Singh]

"In a recreation of the Kitty Genovese case"
sometimes its become very difficult to predict whether you are joking or serious and thats why I have to ask again and again. Are you serious ??
Kitty was asking, shouting for help. And still if no one helps then ....
It was not like poking nose on the base of some assumptions or for to quench your uncontrollable urge to "help thy neighbour".

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Jason Menard:
If it's happening in public ...
.. So what would you have done? Stood there and watched?

If something is happening in public then its public matter and any public can intervene.
If I slap my child in my home and if I dont know you and you come to my home and advice me that I cant slap my child then I think I will call police for trespassing.

[Joe Pluta]

It is true that I not willing to murder innocent people to save my child.
See, this is the icky part. You said "harm", not "murder", Tom. But you change the sentence as it suits you. I find this intellectually dishonest.
Joe

[R K Singh]

Originally posted by Mapraputa Is:
I cannot agree with your "if they dont ask for help then never help them" statement.

OK agree .. it was exaggeration.