SCJP 1.4
Originally posted by John Summers:
what have u been doing for 18 months? on the dole while studying or working somewhere?
i know people may find this shocking but I know several people who are IT recruitment consultants and technical consultants and say that doing this is common practice in IT. ok what the thing is?
LIE.
yep, lie. if you are SURE you really know Java WELL, that you are an expert, then change your CV. say you did some at Marconi. doesnt need to be a lot. then sit and work up a story about what it was you did and what bits you programmed, etc. mabye even program some in your own time.
Belive me, this goes on all the time. a lot of the top contractors change their CV with each job. they're some ace C++ programmer with SCJD quals (but no experience) and some IT Recruitment moron says they are not qualified to write a JSP page! what do they do... the just change their CV and say they've done it, then wing it once they've got the job.
Originally posted by John Summers:
Another solution is to say you were a self employed consultant. get some mates in different companies who are willing to give you a reference saying you did bits of random QA or development for them. yes this is probably legally dubious. However, if my choice was a) be left on employment scrapheap b) tell a porkie and get a job, then I know what I'd do...
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny - it is the light that guides your way. - Heraclitus
42
SCJP
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I consider lying morally wrong. I consider those who advise you to lie morally corrupt. Lying is never good. In the end, it will come back to haunt you. I will fire people for lying. (We did dismiss a contractor at one company when it was clear that his skills were clearly oversold.)
--Mark
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
But if you are lying too much, soon or later your stories will not match, you may ended up behind bars. A little bit white lies to get yourself inside the company does not hurt, but by all means whatever you put on your cover page and resume be reflects of your ability because there is time you need to use those talents.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Apparenty you have never lied. About anything I presume? Never finessed what you really thought about some piece of utter stupidity perpetrated by someone in a position to do you or your team real damage? Always tell the SO precisely what you think of their every action?
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Consider your statements about firing people for lying. Do you fire them for lying or for being incompetent? Or for the combination?
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
The contractor example you cite 'oversold' would seem to indicate that the chap was incompetent, at least for the role he was hired to do. What would you do if a person you hired was clearly in over his head despite there being no discernable lies on his CV?
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Conversely, would you fire someone really effective because you learned that her actual GPA in college was less than claimed on her CV?
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
Lie and Honest both have their own levels. If you are too honest, you are deem to be naive and at our ages you will be called stupid. But if you are lying too much, soon or later your stories will not match, you may ended up behind bars. A little bit white lies to get yourself inside the company does not hurt
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
We work in a profession where learning projects undertaken at home or 'on the side' on the job are routinely ignored for purposes of CV evaluation.
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
It would be useful if advocates of perfect honesty would also deal with some of the problems which cause people to stray from the path of perfect truth. How do you advise qualified people whose CV's don't match the approved pattern of recruiters and HR 'specialists' to get through the filters?
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
We work in a profession where learning projects undertaken at home or 'on the side' on the job are routinely ignored for purposes of CV evaluation. As are years of experience in the field but not with the current toolset which is in vogue. Sometimes with cause but frequently with no cause. It is easy to point out cases either way.
It would be useful if advocates of perfect honesty would also deal with some of the problems which cause people to stray from the path of perfect truth. How do you advise qualified people whose CV's don't match the approved pattern of recruiters and HR 'specialists' to get through the filters?
"One good thing about music - when it hits, you feel no pain" <P>Bob Marley
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
It would be useful if advocates of perfect honesty would also deal with some of the problems which cause people to stray from the path of perfect truth. How do you advise qualified people whose CV's don't match the approved pattern of recruiters and HR 'specialists' to get through the filters?
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Let me be clear, not mentioning something in most cases is not dishonest. If applying for a Java job, if you feel that you don't want to mention the 10% of the time you did perl at your last company, that's one thing. You have to summarize on your resume, and maybe you feel that's not relevant. On the other hand, if you spend 90% of your time doing perl, but only mention the 10% Java, that's misrepresenting yourself.
By those terms, I don't think you can be too honest.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
Well, most people don't like these answers, but you ignore those people. Those companies are probably poorly run and don't understand their needs. Are those people you want to work for? Take it as a big red flag and move on.
Alternatively, talk to them anyway and see if it's just a wish list, but they can be realistic. Most people don't hire exactly what they set out to. Some people often can sell themselves into a position. <...> In that case I basically created my own job.
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I have mixed feelings about this <home or side projects>. Side projects often end up as toy examples. More importantly, I always emphsaize its never the technology that's key but communication and teamwork skills. Most side projects are done as inidividuals. To that end, side projects aren't too valuable.
Yes, they do give you some technical depth, and yes, it's better than nothing, <....> but usually it builds secondary skills.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Alfred Neumann:
Normally I do ignore these companies and recruiters, but the market the past two years has been incredibly difficult. Every recruiter I spoke to was playing the filter game. You have to get through the filters in order to talk to the customer, and you had to generate volume to get any kind of response rate.
BEA 8.1 Certified Administrator, IBM Certified Solution Developer For XML 1.1 and Related Technologies, SCJP, SCWCD, SCBCD, SCDJWS, SCJD, SCEA,
Oracle Certified Master Java EE 5 Enterprise Architect
Originally posted by Matt Cao:
I think others already spoken similar to my POV. If one encounters this particular situation, then he/she needs to utilize his/her soft skills -- the power of negotiation. If he/she claims to be expert in the field, then he/she should have no problem to educate those recruiters. I am not sure about the term HR 'specialists'. But if you meant corporation HR, then same thing negotiation through small talks.
Do not let those filtering automation scare anyone of you away. If one hungry enough, he/she will find the way. Improvide the solutions.
SCJP1.4, SCWCD
Originally posted by Mark Herschberg:
I consider lying morally wrong. I consider those who advise you to lie morally corrupt. Lying is never good. In the end, it will come back to haunt you. I will fire people for lying. (We did dismiss a contractor at one company when it was clear that his skills were clearly oversold.)
If you absolutely feel that your resume needs to be changed, consider maybe dropping some stuff from your resume. You say that you're willing to take an entry level job but appear to qualified? Maybe you can leave things off to seem like you have fewer skills/less experience than you have. Personally, I wouldn't do that, but at least you're not claiming to be something that you aren't, or saying something that isn't true.
--Mark
Don't get me started about those stupid light bulbs. |