Only the Young Need Apply

[Rufus BugleWeed]

An advertisement on monster from SBC - ref id 14240.20499.3383

Job Description:
***Only resumes with GPA information- cumulative and/or major and graduation month and year will be considered***
College Hires should be mature, have initiative/ with a go get them kind of attitude, IT training/ background, and a computer science or MIS degree. Must be flexible and be enthusiastic. Needs to be very adept with communicating to large groups and working issues to resolution.
********************************************
Must be a recent college grad with less than 6 months IT experience (not including internships) and be able to start in December 2003
********************************************
Required Degrees/Majors/Accreditations/Skills: BS or BA in Computer Science or related field. Good communication skills are a must.
Desired Degrees/Majors/Accreditations/Skills: Java, Javascript, HTML, Cobol, Oracle, C, C++, Unix, and XML.
Searchable Keywords: recent college grad, May or August 2003 Grad, Client Server, Java, C\C++, UNIX, college hire / gj-mo
Minimum Education Required: Bachelor
Years of Experience Required: Entry Level

What is it that makes a recent college grad the best candidate?

[Matthew Phillips]

A couple of things that come to mind are money and training. They may not want to pay what an experienced programmer would expect. They may also expect that someone fresh out of college will be easier to train to their way of doing things than someone who has experience doing it another way. I'm not saying that they are right or wrong, but that may be what they are thinking.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Maybe people with only X chromosomes are easier to train and will work for less money too.
I made the trip to the federal building today. I have rubberstamped complaint form from the EEOC. I should get a call from them in 2 to 3 weeks. I cannot wait to find out how they worm their way out of this.
[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[Tim Baker]

that doesn't say only the young need apply. it says only recent graduates which are two different things and i think what they want is perfectly acceptable. Older people who have just graduated with a degree would probably be equally welcome as long as they don't have relevent experience before their degree.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

I worded my complaint as -

I believe that requiring a recent college grad with less than 6 months experience has a strong statistical bias towards workers less than 40

I am all ears for explanations as to why unexperienced workers are better than experienced. Why are unexperienced workers easier to train or cheaper to train? I'm having a hard to time understanding that. Unless your counting the cost of health insurance, I'm having a hard time understanding why one worker at $45K is cheaper than another.
Walks like a duck...

[Matthew Phillips]

But what if they only want to pay someone 20K? Are you willing to put multiple years worth of experience to work for that amount? It's a pretty safe bet that if you are, you won't do it for long or you won't do it very well. If I were looking to fill an entry level position at entry level pay, I wouldn't consider someone with 5 years experience because it's a safe bet that they won't take the kind of money that I'm offering. It's safe to assume that someone fresh out of college will be looking for an entry level job, so why not tailor my advertising to fit my needs?
Ultimately, do you really want to work for a company that doesn't want you?

[Tim Baker]

yes a lot of jobs wont consider you if you are over qualified because they think you will be unhappy etc
and where can i find one of these 45k graduate jobs?

[stara szkapa]

Originally posted by Matthew Phillips:
But what if they only want to pay someone 20K?

Many experienced people will take this job. Excluding them automatically is not fair. There is so many people not working for a year or longer that they simply have no choice but start from the bottom again.
Another factor is that people want to have opportunity to switch carrier path for example from C++ to Java. Having opportunity to get entry level position is valuable.
[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: stara szkapa ]

[Jamie Robertson]

I don't know how it is in the US but in Canada, recent graduate may qualify for a government subsidy which will pay part of the recent graduate's salary for a period of time, pay for training/seminars, and just plain help recent graduates. This is for any job in any industry. The goal is to help recent graduates find meaningful employment and gain meaningful experience in their field. see Youth Employment Services for more details.
Jamie

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
I must admit that helping a lot when I was young and smart. I started to join the professional labor market when I was still in Junior Grade in High School. But the darkside of it is too much paperworks and not many private organization want to deal with it. If anyone youngster want to take that route, you must like to work with the government.
Regards,
MCao

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Finally I've heard from the EEOC they say they need a meeting to determine what further information is needed.
I surfed the EEOC's web page. I found the following under the age discrimination section.

� 1625.4 Help wanted notices or advertisements.
(a) When help wanted notices or advertisements
contain terms and phrases such as age 25 to 35, young, college
student, recent college graduate, boy, girl, or others of a similar nature, sucha term or phrase deters the employment
of older persons and is a violation of the Act, unless one of the exceptions applies.

Now the ad states

********************************************
Must be a recent college grad with less than 6 months IT experience (not including internships) and be able to start in December 2003
********************************************

I am supposing this is a Republican administration.
Does this look clear cut to you?

[Steven Broadbent]

Anyone in the UK know of any similar restrictions on language used in adverts? I have been tempted to make a complaint about several ads over the years, just to piss off pompous rec cons and employers more than anything else.
Given the ineptitude shown in so many job posting I can't believe that no one has yet had their wrist smacked.

[Steven Broadbent]

To answer my own question - I have found out that ads from a certain job site break ASA rules here. Think I'll fire off a complaint and see what happens.

[Rufus BugleWeed]

Why am I certain certain dependant economies don't have any age discrimination laws; that standing up for what is morally right and just is just another nail in my coffin?
Somebody from a country where they are winning the business because they are CMM-5, where they are winning business because they just do it better, where they have a highly advanced 5000 year old culture, tell me that they give a rupee about the rights and needs of the aging. Ashok? Casablanca?

[Jeroen Wenting]

Don't know about the UK but in the Netherlands discrimination on age, sex and race is prohibited.
That's doesn't mean it's not officially condoned of course, if you want a 50 year old black female it's perfectly OK to mention that, but never even hint that you prefer a 25 year old white male.

[Steven Broadbent]

uk legislation comes in 2006 - by which time there will not be much left.

[Tim Baker]

Can I claim age discrimination against job advertisements that require 5 years programming experience because they are favouring old people over the young?
When they are saying Recent Graduate that isn't any kind of age discrimination, there are plenty of older graduates who are not discouraged from applying.
If they can advertise for required levels of experience then there is no reason why they can't advertise for no experience.
With graduate opportunities making up way less than 10% of advertised jobs, what on earth are you complaining about?

[Eric Pascarello]

Try to find a job with no experience in today's market. Everyone wants 3-5 years experience and they consider that entry level. I got lucky and got into the industry with no professional experience.
If I were a company, I would want an entry level guy with little or no experience so you can mold them into what you want and not what they already are. I see how certain programmers here are stuck in a rut and they will never get out of it. A new person in the field can be easily adapted.
Yes by taking on entry level positions it is a risk, but someone gave each and everyone of you a chance. But most of you might have come into the IT world during the boom. Right now there is no boom and most companies are cutting the work force down. I have seen layoffs at the company I do contract work for, these people are making it hard on new grads and you have a problem with it.
My 2 cents...
Eric

[Rufus BugleWeed]

CIO's Age Discrimination Article

Then he made some changes to his r�sum�, opting to include only 10 years of experience. "As soon as I shaved off 10 years, I got seven or eight calls in the first week," he says. But the job hunt didn't end. "The interview is pretty much done as soon as they see how old you are. They'll come out with a great big smile, and as soon as they see you the smile disappears," says Struhs

Misery loves company.
[ February 12, 2004: Message edited by: Rufus BugleWeed ]

[Matt Cao]

Hi,
Age discrimination do affected everyone; therefore, we have laws against them. But if some executives complaint about age-discrimination, I have one big question about his/her capability of an executive. Could he/she knows how to create a business after he/she get laid-off for whatever the reasons. If he/she is the boss, who is there to complain about his/her age. Let said, he/she wasted all the money in lousy investments. Is he/she have contacts to find funding for a new endeavor?
Regards,
MCao